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Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff -- all points taken, but I don't see how a four inch mound in a green produces an unpredictable roll. Sure, it means putts break more.  But gravity is a constant. They break more all the time.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 8) :P


Design for riding equipment , hand mowing verboten. Has to drain well, or else maintenance budget goes up so less water is also really good.


Small clubhouse , minimalist irrigation (but with plenty of snap valves around greens)
Have to find energetic staff that works for tips and understands the deal.
Property hopefully drains well, land costs ???
Food service simple with limited choices. Perhaps an outside vendor.


Benevolent dictator in charge


 
Hard as hell to do this really well as the attention to detail to keep it humming along requires someone who truly loves the game and people....not a part time job unless blessed with incredible staff. I don't know how you can keep the golf course in any kind of shape with two or three people in season unless it's a rudimentary layout.  So you may have to find some older part timers to help you early am, maybe trade for some golf. Just needs too much work to keep it clean and neat even if not necessarily green everywhere.


I think over time you can sell the maintenance issues to masses as long as the greens remain pristine (and the surrounds) at present it's easier to do than it was 20 years ago


In our area the high end golf courses are separating themselves by pricing, they simply are charging what they want and tend not to be worried about the fall out which is a surprising twist. However they are really expected to deliver immaculate conditions (wall to wall green ) to their clients.  $125-200 guest fees are back and there is very little negotiation to increase volume. Speaks to the net worth of the summer residents here.







« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 11:29:59 AM by archie_struthers »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff -- all points taken, but I don't see how a four inch mound in a green produces an unpredictable roll. Sure, it means putts break more.  But gravity is a constant. They break more all the time.


Many golfers object to any change of grade halfway between themselves and the hole, because they can't control the speed of the putt (i.e., constant gentle slope between lie and hole can be accounted for, but when the putt picks up velocity or loses it 1/2 or 2/3 the way from the hole how do they judge for that?  Not to mention you hit a portion of that little bump that deflects away (no one remembers if it directs it in the hole, LOL)


And besides golfers opinions, one component of BAM courses is speed of play, which can increase revenues, which always helps.


In other words, when building a BAM, who cares about design nuance?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1


And honestly, whenever I have put a knob in the middle of the green, most retail golfers (as well as better ones) bitch.  Their idea, which is hard to argue, is that if they hit a good putt, it ought to have a predictable roll, i.e., a chance to go in, rather than random deflections that might not distinguish a good putt from a bad one.



It's funny, because Mike Keiser is definitely one of those golfers, but somehow he keeps hiring guys who push to include such features!  Maybe, deep down, he understands that you can't sell a more practical but also less interesting course for a premium price?


That is the problem with the premise of this thread:  the other half of the equation for 99% of courses is revenues.  Bare-ass minimum makes perfect sense if we are talking about a course for a private individual [although they tend to want something better!], but otherwise, any new course has got to compete for customers.  It would be much more cost-effective to have more heavily contoured greens and slower green speeds, but if golfers don't want to play slower greens, that's not a solution.  And neither is a boring golf course.




David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don Mahaffey, where are you??  You are the person that can anwer this!!!!

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think what the golf market is starved for (COVID boom aside)  is not more great golf courses, but more great golf course values. As in more opportunities to play not necessarily great golf courses, but merely good to very good courses at fairly cheap prices (I am overdoing it with the italics I'm sorry). I think a place like Diamond Springs is a great value to the people that play there. I think Wolf Point was a great value to its' owner (maintenance budget was very low). I've heard that St. Andrews Beach is a great value as well. When you think of great values, there just aren't that many.


Outsourcing F and B is another great idea. With the popularity of food trucks I think that model could work really well. We have a brewery here locally that always has a taco truck parked outside of it and the two are separate but symbiotic entities. Think about a food truck with a barbecue/smoker going all day. The smell of smoked meat wafts over you as you putt out on 18. You think you are going somewhere else to eat? You ain't.


And I don't think that a minimum of expenditure on construction/maintenance need be boring at all. Especially with a great site. But what about a disadvantaged site? Flat, featureless, etc. How do you make great golf out of a boring piece of land without a huge earthmoving expense? Is Winged Foot a model? How hard would it be to build 18 severe greens like WF? Would it be cost prohibitive?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think what the golf market is starved for (COVID boom aside)  is not more great golf courses, but more great golf course values. As in more opportunities to play not necessarily great golf courses, but merely good to very good courses at fairly cheap prices (I am overdoing it with the italics I'm sorry). I think a place like Diamond Springs is a great value to the people that play there. I think Wolf Point was a great value to its' owner (maintenance budget was very low). I've heard that St. Andrews Beach is a great value as well. When you think of great values, there just aren't that many.


Outsourcing F and B is another great idea. With the popularity of food trucks I think that model could work really well. We have a brewery here locally that always has a taco truck parked outside of it and the two are separate but symbiotic entities. Think about a food truck with a barbecue/smoker going all day. The smell of smoked meat wafts over you as you putt out on 18. You think you are going somewhere else to eat? You ain't.


And I don't think that a minimum of expenditure on construction/maintenance need be boring at all. Especially with a great site. But what about a disadvantaged site? Flat, featureless, etc. How do you make great golf out of a boring piece of land without a huge earthmoving expense? Is Winged Foot a model? How hard would it be to build 18 severe greens like WF? Would it be cost prohibitive?


Bingo!  There’s plenty of garbage out there that is perfectly priced and overly priced.  But, what’s lacking is interesting golf at the right price. 


Another caveat to this is that I think the perfect person to actually be able to pull something like this off is a business savvy former or current golf course superintendent.  They can manage the grass, and all the clubhouse details as well.  Only high salary folks on staff would be a golf pro.  F&B should be outsourced if not so small that part timers could manage it.  This would save tons on labor.  I think this business model fails with just about anyone else.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 06:40:00 PM by John Emerson »
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff -- all points taken, but I don't see how a four inch mound in a green produces an unpredictable roll. Sure, it means putts break more.  But gravity is a constant. They break more all the time.


Many golfers object to any change of grade halfway between themselves and the hole, because they can't control the speed of the putt (i.e., constant gentle slope between lie and hole can be accounted for, but when the putt picks up velocity or loses it 1/2 or 2/3 the way from the hole how do they judge for that?  Not to mention you hit a portion of that little bump that deflects away (no one remembers if it directs it in the hole, LOL)


And besides golfers opinions, one component of BAM courses is speed of play, which can increase revenues, which always helps.


In other words, when building a BAM, who cares about design nuance?
I do!  ;D It's actually why I asked the question.  I'm curious if there can be an awesome fun design done on a BAM budget.  Can we satisfy a BAM course that's analogous to the Cheaper and faster and better; we can usually only have 2 of the three, but not all.Can a great BAM course be built that is praised for its design while being simple to maintain, challenging and fun for golfers everywhere?  Can it become a small-scale destination course due to excellent design without the high price tags in greens fees or maintenance?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
I think what the golf market is starved for (COVID boom aside)  is not more great golf courses, but more great golf course values. As in more opportunities to play not necessarily great golf courses, but merely good to very good courses at fairly cheap prices (I am overdoing it with the italics I'm sorry). I think a place like Diamond Springs is a great value to the people that play there. I think Wolf Point was a great value to its' owner (maintenance budget was very low). I've heard that St. Andrews Beach is a great value as well. When you think of great values, there just aren't that many.


Outsourcing F and B is another great idea. With the popularity of food trucks I think that model could work really well. We have a brewery here locally that always has a taco truck parked outside of it and the two are separate but symbiotic entities. Think about a food truck with a barbecue/smoker going all day. The smell of smoked meat wafts over you as you putt out on 18. You think you are going somewhere else to eat? You ain't.


And I don't think that a minimum of expenditure on construction/maintenance need be boring at all. Especially with a great site. But what about a disadvantaged site? Flat, featureless, etc. How do you make great golf out of a boring piece of land without a huge earthmoving expense? Is Winged Foot a model? How hard would it be to build 18 severe greens like WF? Would it be cost prohibitive?


Do you guys not understand how capitalism works ?


The reason there are so few great values in golf is that owners will raise the price if the course is considered a bargain - regardless of how much they spent to build it or to maintain it.  St Andrews Beach is a great value because Aussies won't pay more than that for public golf, and unlike the Brits, they don't have a steady stream of overseas visitors who identify it as a bargain.  Every course in the UK used to be a bargain, until they found out the price the market would bear; now the only bargains are places that don't fit smoothly into a 7-round itinerary.

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good point on the capitalism.  if the

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good point on the capitalism.  If the tee sheet is too booked up then greens and membership fees need to go up.  We're experiencing that at Hooper for the first time in decades.  The membership committee is only charging $25 more for next year from an already ridiculously low $575; I think it should have been a more aggressive increase. 
Perhaps at that point is loses it's BAM status unless the owner pockets the additional revenue instead of putting it into further conditioning improvements.Getting back to having more elaborate green contours. 
This is where I'd think even a BAM course shouldn't skimp on.  I played Cape Arundel last week and absolutely loved the aggressive greens contours on greens that sit on relatively flat sites. Is the maintenance cost notably higher for highly characterized greens sites than boring sites?  I'm guessing yes if thye're walk mowed, no if they can be triplex mowed--or better yet Roomba mowed.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 08:05:50 AM by Peter Bowman »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0


And honestly, whenever I have put a knob in the middle of the green, most retail golfers (as well as better ones) bitch.  Their idea, which is hard to argue, is that if they hit a good putt, it ought to have a predictable roll, i.e., a chance to go in, rather than random deflections that might not distinguish a good putt from a bad one.






It's funny, because Mike Keiser is definitely one of those golfers, but somehow he keeps hiring guys who push to include such features!  Maybe, deep down, he understands that you can't sell a more practical but also less interesting course for a premium price?


That is the problem with the premise of this thread:  the other half of the equation for 99% of courses is revenues.  Bare-ass minimum makes perfect sense if we are talking about a course for a private individual [although they tend to want something better!], but otherwise, any new course has got to compete for customers.  It would be much more cost-effective to have more heavily contoured greens and slower green speeds, but if golfers don't want to play slower greens, that's not a solution.  And neither is a boring golf course.



Tom,


Well, I don't think Mike K's destination resort model is really more than a one off example, based on my 38 years in the biz, designing mostly near BAM courses for public agencies and management companies.



As to your revenue comments above and in another post, in the last dozen years at least, capitalism has forced 100X more courses to lower prices than raise them in a race to the pricing bottom to hopefully attract golfers.  I actually think there are far too many great values, again, for the last dozen years, but maybe we are finally working our way out of that.  Very few have even tried to maintain green fees.  My take is, if a course is busy enough to justify a fee rise in this environment, kudos to them!


The biggest part of demand is available golfers and rounds in a 10 mile radius.  Basically, if there are 100,000 public rounds available in a metro area, and there are 5 public courses, each should get 20K rounds, although, the best conditioned one might get 25K and the worst one only 15K.  At that point, they better think in terms of some kind of improvements, usually anyway.


I have seen no study that suggests that any particular design feature actually drives play (other than the obvious like Pebble Beach, Pac Dunes, etc) on the public side.  The strong preferences for great design shared among the 1400 on this board extends maybe slightly more.  Which brings me back to the idea that while a random hump (Hill's humps?) maybe be seen as great design (and not all golfers agree) for most of the 10K+ public courses, we have to question whether adding 1000 SF of green construction and maintenance cost to it on a BAM course makes sense as the best hazard type to bring interest, or whether other design features might draw players more.


It may be changing, and there is certainly more interest in design now, but I find from comments by golfers, that most are attracted to the pretty holes, good golfers maybe the tough holes (at 1-2% of total) and another 1% to the unusual holes.  I actually think the biggest design attraction is still towards signature and "hot" designers, regardless of whether actual design quality is great (even though it usually is pretty good).  As with art, golfers don't really know why they like something, but they know when they like something.


As always, JMHO, but I am sincerely trying to mirror whatever I have seen in the biz of moderately priced public courses.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
https://golf.com/travel/inside-sand-green-golf-rough-rudimentary-game/


Here’s an interesting article and is the ultimate BAM for golf design that’s totally not what I was referring to.  I haven’t seen this much in the states but I can see how it might create an interest in golf in underserved areas. 

The data tracking on my iPad must have known I’d enjoy this story

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coloured writing, even worse green writing. No thanks. Please desist.
Atb

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coloured writing, even worse green writing. No thanks. Please desist.
Atb


I didn't read, but I did look at the pictures. For me, some irrigation loops around some tees and some grass greens constructed and you have good golf on those properties IMO. I thought the dormant fairway cuts looked spectacular.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think what the golf market is starved for (COVID boom aside)  is not more great golf courses, but more great golf course values. As in more opportunities to play not necessarily great golf courses, but merely good to very good courses at fairly cheap prices (I am overdoing it with the italics I'm sorry). I think a place like Diamond Springs is a great value to the people that play there. I think Wolf Point was a great value to its' owner (maintenance budget was very low). I've heard that St. Andrews Beach is a great value as well. When you think of great values, there just aren't that many.


Outsourcing F and B is another great idea. With the popularity of food trucks I think that model could work really well. We have a brewery here locally that always has a taco truck parked outside of it and the two are separate but symbiotic entities. Think about a food truck with a barbecue/smoker going all day. The smell of smoked meat wafts over you as you putt out on 18. You think you are going somewhere else to eat? You ain't.


And I don't think that a minimum of expenditure on construction/maintenance need be boring at all. Especially with a great site. But what about a disadvantaged site? Flat, featureless, etc. How do you make great golf out of a boring piece of land without a huge earthmoving expense? Is Winged Foot a model? How hard would it be to build 18 severe greens like WF? Would it be cost prohibitive?


Do you guys not understand how capitalism works ?


The reason there are so few great values in golf is that owners will raise the price if the course is considered a bargain - regardless of how much they spent to build it or to maintain it.  St Andrews Beach is a great value because Aussies won't pay more than that for public golf, and unlike the Brits, they don't have a steady stream of overseas visitors who identify it as a bargain.  Every course in the UK used to be a bargain, until they found out the price the market would bear; now the only bargains are places that don't fit smoothly into a 7-round itinerary.


I hear you Tom. My point is, if the architecture is good, the course can be maintained with a high degree of efficiency, and the superfluous stuff is kept to a minimum, that course can charge less than neighboring courses that are not such cleverly designed systems. Revenues - expenses = profit. Revenue maximization is just one avenue. Cost minimization is another. Yes, I do understand capitalism. COVID in a sense has brought to light that you can cut staff and maintenance dollars and still have a good golf experience. I have seen it first hand at my club. We are operating on about half staff, and to my mind, half staff is probably right-sized.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter:


Having played some of those sand courses in Saskatchewan and Alberta. I would not really recommend anyone drive out of their way to experience sand golf unless your desperate for a game.


As much as these are the types of places that grow the game and keep people in it who are not the average golfer. Its always been hard to see the appeal beyond the local market. It is why all BAM solutions are more site and use specific than other golf courses that I have seen or played. As they have to run on volunteerism and with some minor community fund raising if needed to keep going. This is not a bad thing its just a fact of running a course that due to choices made to keep cost low has a lower outside draw than an average course would. If that is the type of model your looking for there are lots of great examples. but the best ones work more due to locality than them by any means being text book examples. As they all use what they have around them to build golf with at least 1 caveat that makes golf interesting there but reduces outside play. As BAM course by their definition are bare ass minimum, the rules of what define a golf course become shady. For me its a golf course as long as its more than 3 holes with defined starting and finishing rules. I have left this definition so open due to me playing, or seeing many a course that was no more than a well contoured sandy field run through with  a gang unit 2 twice a week with 9 holes cut into it (no real tees, no real greens). If all players accept that golf is about getting a small ball to and object over broken ground these courses are the closest we get to the roots of the game outside of the links. The major trade off being the fact that it sort of doesn't feel like golf sometimes even in the best examples of true bare minimum golf there is always something that makes you wish they would spend the money to fix the caveat. Anyways 




All this is to say BAM golf is great because it keeps the game alive in different ways, but am I seeking to play more than one true BAM a year not really. Although it depending where I am, if I see the right ground movement and plant cover, I can be persuaded to play almost anywhere.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 06:59:44 PM by Ben Malach »
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
I enjoyed the golf.com article about sand green courses in Canada - now that's BAM.


And it made me think of all the really BAM courses I have seen, almost none of them in America:


Mulranny, or Brora or Westward Ho!, with grazed fairways


All of the country courses in NZ with irrigation only at the greens


The open air clubhouse at Makuyu Club in Kenya


Almost none of these courses have any bunkers OR a reliable water supply.  The only difference between them and the sand green courses is having enough members / income to maintain greens.


** Adding:  another fine BAM course is Cleeve Cloud, with its grazed fairways and common land . . . but it is also in danger of closing right now, because not many modern golfers are accepting of the true BAM approach.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 07:13:30 PM by Tom_Doak »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Mulranny, or Brora or Westward Ho!, with grazed fairways"

Tom D. -

I don't know when you were last at Brora, but the presentation/maintenance of the course has come a long way over the past 15 years. BAM no longer applies.

DT

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Same for Westward Ho! It's no longer a rustic course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Have both Brora and Westward Ho! increased their team and maintenance budget? Or have they just got better at doing a lot on a little?


Mulranny definitely still applies.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is kind of a simplistic answer, but how about an extra par-three? More Par 70s instead of 72s.

Less space. Less fairway acreage.

Doesn't necessarily make the course easier - I know if I need a birdie, I'd rather have a 510 yard par-five over a 210 yard par-three. Easier holes for ladies and juniors though, assuming you aren't making them hit over water.

Do munis really need four par-fives?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Courses grazed by sheep, kangaroos probably as well, don't half keep costs down but also produce lovely turf to play from and goats are great for eating scrub and vegetation. This approach with fences around the putting surfaces is spot-on for BAM ... except where big hungry critters exist that want kill and eat the four-legged nibbling members of the maintenance crew.
Equipment roll-back ought to aid BAM as well, but maybe best not to go there within this thread. :)
Small clubhouses as well.
atb



Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
The problem I've seen when we talk about low cost golf is the huge mistake made by assuming that means simple golf, or golf without nuance as has been described on a few posts above. When you build a flat green with no real character, what is the only thing you can do to make it interesting at all? Make it fast; and their goes your BAM operating maintenance costs. Its the emphasis on conditioning and the related maintenance costs that make so many course operating models unsustainable. If you want a low operating budget, you need a course that golfers will enjoy that isn't expensive to care for...take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf.


And....it helps if you can build on sand or land that has enough interest to not require a lot of big earth moves...shaping in place is not expensive (contrary to what many in the biz say, there are legions of young shapers that would love the opportunity to be turned loose and who knows you might even build something a little different).
A cheap water source, close to utilities and roads, some sort of labor pool. 


And another contrarian belief, you don't an alphabet soup of consultants to tell you what to do. Find yourself the best version of an Old Tom you can and then go for it. We live in an era of CYA and liability avoidance...golf course creation isn't nearly as complicated as so many in our business have made it out to be. Find a leader who will take responsibility for the golf course creation, then let him/her coordinate it all while working to keep overhead, fees and labor at an absolute minimum. 


It helps a lot if you're not in a hurry too. I don't believe you ever make the $$$ back spent rushing to open, but that's another contrarian view too.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 07:53:36 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Regarding "no nuance" in greens, its not really binary, i.e., many random muffins vs. dead flat. 


When keeping green size to a minimum to distribute wear, on a BAM course, the entire green can be gently rolling from 1.5 to maybe 3.5% slope, which would all be cup space (save the top of any dividing ridge between swales) and for most golfers, be plenty interesting to putt.  Some of those slopes might be used to roll a ball down to a pin, backspin off the back, etc. for approach shot interest. Are some of you saying you don't think a gently rolling green can have character?  I disagree!


Given those would be interesting greens to most golfers, it just doesn't make much sense to me to have a lot of internal contours that waste potential cup space and increase necessary green size, on a BAM course as the best and most cost efficient way to make a course interesting. 


Ditto some off green stuff, like sand bunkers, where the BAM method might be to build them to make the course interesting, but limit yourself to 20-25, always as a hazard (i.e., no random or visual only bunkers) and design them to be as maintenance friendly as possible.  Lately, I have been replacing many sand bunkers with grass bunkers, and other grass features with more regularity, in part because when I started playing golf in the 1960's, there were a lot of those, mostly former bunkers that got too expensive to maintain.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach