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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« on: September 20, 2020, 08:32:09 PM »
 :o :o


Maybe it's how Augusta's stewards felt when a young Tiger Woods dismantled their golf course. Given what we know now it might not have bothered them as much. He was a true prodigy then and arguably the best ever now !


DeChambeau , outlier or genius , only time will tell. The golf course held up to scoring pretty well, save Bryson, but how he did it was surely smash mouth golf.  You might not be able to design a course that can stop the growing divide between the elite players and the rest of us. Will this make design decisions impossible ?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2020, 08:48:21 PM »
:o :o


Maybe it's how Augusta's stewards felt when a young Tiger Woods dismantled their golf course. Given what we know now it might not have bothered them as much. He was a true prodigy then and arguably the best ever now !


DeChambeau , outlier or genius , only time will tell. The golf course held up to scoring pretty well, save Bryson, but how he did it was surely smash mouth golf.  You might not be able to design a course that can stop the growing divide between the elite players and the rest of us. Will this make design decisions impossible ?


5 inch rough isn't really an architectural choice for one.
Bunkers that actually matter could influence strategy, rather than the "get in the bunker" ones we see on courses that host championships in the US.
I'll never understand how in our quest for more speed, more rough, more super tight fairways that are nearly  impossibleto pitch from...
we have allowed  bunkers to become desireable places to hit the ball(i.e. ithey nduce no fear)
There are so many, yet they produce little thought, much less fear for elite players.


I can assure you if there were a few Pot or severe bunkers randomly out 300 to 360 on ANY of the finishing holes at WF, Bryson might've hit a club that went a distance to assure himslef of not being in one that could produce a double or worse.
There was zero fear for him out there of more than a bogie-anywhere.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2020, 08:51:29 PM »
1. 8800 yard courses?
2. 12" rough?
3. why bother with bunkers?

and the old stand by options:
- 10 clubs
- reduce ball by 30 percent
- shorten club length


6 under par is not that earth shattering
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2020, 08:57:27 PM »
No major changes needed; only one guy was under par. If 30 players were under it would be a different story.
Be the ball

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2020, 09:15:47 PM »
Pretty remarkable weekend really. BD was so comfortable in the rough he completely validated his long term strategic vision for how to play on tour.


To do what he does, you have to make the putts and he did.


As a legit scratch, I don’t think I’d have broken 320 from his tee shots...and he shot 274.


Are WF greens Poa?

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2020, 09:16:08 PM »
No major changes needed; only one guy was under par. If 30 players were under it would be a different story.


Exactly

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2020, 09:17:21 PM »
No major changes needed; only one guy was under par. If 30 players were under it would be a different story.


Pithy and profound. But the last round was golf narcolepsy. Total snoozer.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2020, 09:40:28 PM »
If you set up the course so that nobody can hit a high % of fairways, and if you back off the tee shot you're left with 220-yard aproaches, then the only way to play is to smash it down to wedge distance.


If the fairways were wider and the rough wasn't so thick, it would have helped other guys more than Bryson and Wolff.


So, it all depends on what type of champion you're trying to identify, and where you want the balance of power to fall -- but right now, it falls in favor of power.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2020, 09:41:20 PM »
Coming into the tournament, I think Bryson understood something important, and not only analytically but also deep in his bones: ie that the golf course didn't have to be -- for him -- what anyone else intended or wanted it to be. He could see it exactly the way he himself wanted to see it, even if no one else saw it that same way. He realized at a fundamental level that neither the architect-design, nor the superintendent-maintenance practices, nor the set up men-USGA goals could stand in the way of his freedom, unless he himself gave them that power and gave away his freedom. And he didn't do that; he honoured his freedom and kept true to his own inner vision on how to best play the course -- and then he went out and did it. Yes, as others have noted, the entire rest of the field shot the usual US Open score, on a prototypical US Open course. But maybe that's exactly what's different this time, and new: ie the winner was the one who simply didn't believe in a 'typical US Open' course, or let himself feel constrained or impinged upon by the 'usual US Open score'; for BC, they didn't have any meaning at all, and thus no impact either. What's new, perhaps, is the victory of subjective belief over the (so-called) objective realities.
All just sheer speculation, of course -- but if it's true that sure might change architecture moving forward!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 09:45:04 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2020, 09:42:48 PM »
Terry,
Yes, but so was some majors when Tiger or Jack were just stepping on necks.


To the OP, no, BD will not change architecture. He was on this week big time. Everyone says he just hit it a mile and then wedged on....go back and look how many times he was on the proper side, in the rough, to play the hole. he consistently hit it to the proper side...consistently.
The only architectural change I can image is defending easy angles to certain pins from the deep rough; stop all the tree clearing. That's it. Keep the fairways the same, keep it all the same, but don't give an easy bail out in the far rough so the player has an easy pitch with a wedge.   Hitting it to the correct position always will matter, and you don't have to choke the fairways with trees, just stop denuding classic courses of trees in the outer rough.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2020, 09:53:38 PM »

The only architectural change I can image is defending easy angles to certain pins from the deep rough; stop all the tree clearing. That's it. Keep the fairways the same, keep it all the same, but don't give an easy bail out in the far rough so the player has an easy pitch with a wedge.   Hitting it to the correct position always will matter, and you don't have to choke the fairways with trees, just stop denuding classic courses of trees in the outer rough.


The correct reaction depends on whether you are designing for tournament play or for member play.


As for the trees, don't worry, all those trees cut down in all the restoration work will grow back in another sixty years  :-\   The question is, how far will the best players be hitting it then?  (Assuming we have not completely destroyed civilization by then.)

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2020, 10:05:33 PM »
I understand. And I'm not talking about trees over hanging the fairways. I'm talking about the ones 20-30 yards out in the rough.
From the member tees are they really hitting it out there and if so, should they have a clear shot? I'm not saying make it narrow. I'm just saying on parkland golf courses let the trees stay out on the edges. 


On most links courses I think BD will struggle because the big miss can be a big number. At Winged Foot the big miss was often a tough par or easy bogey if there was only rough to deal with.

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2020, 10:30:17 PM »
I think this win will ultimately have an indirect affect on either architecture or course set up or both.


As Tiger before him set the trend for golfers to become athletic or athletes, BD will be a trend setter for power above all else.  Today, he's the longest guy on tour, but how long before several other guys are hitting it past him because they saw his success and want to do the same?

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2020, 10:42:19 PM »
Don M.  Couldn't agree more.  When one misses a fairway by five yards, he should have a direct line to the green, although the shot should be tougher than the one from the fairway.  If the player misses the fairway by twenty yards, a direct shot to the green should rarely be available. 

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2020, 10:47:08 PM »
What Jeff said!


Bunkers on USA parkland courses don't seem to penalize our professional players much. They look pretty but probably present preferred lies most of the time over heavy grass. Also they tend to collect the wayward shot into line-sight of the green rather than allowing the same errant shot to end up in jail amongst the trees.


UK bunker styles with their pots and steep lips are a half shot penalty at least most every time.








Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2020, 10:54:05 PM »
wrong conjunction, Mr. Struthers. Outlier and genius, strategic and sinewy
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2020, 10:58:42 PM »
Lavin, what would have cured the final round of narcolepsy? Hot Bench? Court TV? Caso Cerrado?


Wouldn't that be the identical difference between your court room and a televised clown show?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2020, 12:02:55 AM »
Since there is no rough to speak of at Augusta what happens in November?
Be the ball

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2020, 01:35:58 AM »
I think this win will ultimately have an indirect affect on either architecture or course set up or both.


As Tiger before him set the trend for golfers to become athletic or athletes, BD will be a trend setter for power above all else.  Today, he's the longest guy on tour, but how long before several other guys are hitting it past him because they saw his success and want to do the same?


I couldn't really care less about pro golf - a small rota of two or three new 9000 yard stadium courses built specifically for tour events would resolve that one.

The bigger issue as I see it is on everyday club courses. We're already seeing an emerging generation of 20+ handicappers who routinely hit the ball 300 yards off the tee - in wildly unpredictable directions! In fact, often the wilder the shot the better as it gives them a good lie on an adjacent fairway for their inevitable wedge shot to the green rather than being in the rough.

If this trend towards power above all else continues unabated the majority of golf courses are going to become extremely dangerous and unpleasant places to be. People are going to get killed.

All that needs doing is to tweak the current ball regulations slightly. An obvious and very simple suggestion is one put forward by Dr MacKenzie nearly 100 years ago in The Spirit of St Andrews;

Floaters.  All golf balls must float in water.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 01:55:31 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2020, 03:45:20 AM »
What Mr. Doak said. To lend some glamour to his analysis, let me re-iterate this classic Seve quote:

“I’d like to see the fairways more narrow. Then everyone would have to play from the rough. Not just me.”

That is exactly what they did at Winged Foot. Everyone had to play out of the rough, so the guy, who got it the farthest out there, won.

Tip of the hat to Bryson DeChambeau. He was able to correctly analyze the situation of professional golf, his own talent and mechanics and came up with a long-term plan that, I dare say, 95% of us have no chance of even comprehending intellectually. If you don't believe that, try to read the Golfing Machine and cobble together your swing from the many components in that book. There will be some trying to emulate him, but do they have his talent and propensity to suffer? Right now I think he's far more likely to turn into a legendary outlier genius of golf, rather than the initiator of a broad new wave.
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2020, 07:16:01 AM »
 ;D ;)

+1 Duncan



Ha, ha Monsior Ron, but of course!


On a related note somewhere outlier /genius Moe Norman is smiling today 8)





« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 07:53:34 AM by archie_struthers »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2020, 07:23:26 AM »
Terry,
Yes, but so was some majors when Tiger or Jack were just stepping on necks.


To the OP, no, BD will not change architecture. He was on this week big time. Everyone says he just hit it a mile and then wedged on....go back and look how many times he was on the proper side, in the rough, to play the hole. he consistently hit it to the proper side...consistently.
The only architectural change I can image is defending easy angles to certain pins from the deep rough; stop all the tree clearing. That's it. Keep the fairways the same, keep it all the same, but don't give an easy bail out in the far rough so the player has an easy pitch with a wedge.   Hitting it to the correct position always will matter, and you don't have to choke the fairways with trees, just stop denuding classic courses of trees in the outer rough.


+1. And putting will always matter especially on those greens, and BD was the best putter this week especially from 10 feet in. Btw, despite our common perception, under Par winning scores at the US Open are the norm not the exception. I think 40 out of the last 50 have had under par winning scores. -4 won at even WF in 1984.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 07:28:20 AM by Ira Fishman »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2020, 07:54:31 AM »
Since there is no rough to speak of at Augusta what happens in November?


Superior architecture(what's left of it) will trump artificial setup
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2020, 08:14:10 AM »
Lavin, what would have cured the final round of narcolepsy? Hot Bench? Court TV? Caso Cerrado?


Wouldn't that be the identical difference between your court room and a televised clown show?


Shot making would have. Was there any? I want to see flighted shots.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2020, 08:40:23 AM »
If you set up the course so that nobody can hit a high % of fairways, and if you back off the tee shot you're left with 220-yard aproaches, then the only way to play is to smash it down to wedge distance.


If the fairways were wider and the rough wasn't so thick, it would have helped other guys more than Bryson and Wolff.


So, it all depends on what type of champion you're trying to identify, and where you want the balance of power to fall -- but right now, it falls in favor of power.




And this is what BDC pointed out in his post round interview. If the most accurate guy in the field misses the tight fairway by 1 yard but faces the same penalty as the longest hitter missing it by 15 yards then the set up favors the longest hitters.


Another point he made was that almost all his gains in yardage have been from becoming stronger and therefore able to swing faster. He has gained 25 yards using the same club and ball technology that he used when he was an average length hitter on tour.


Secondly this increased strength gave BDC the option of hitting it to the green out of lies that others could not. There were some long hitters in the field that felt the penalties of going wide, they didn't have the same shot options out of the thick stuff that BDC had.


Unless we foresee the golfing masses going out and hitting the gym, the distance problem (if there is one) in the handicap golfer realm remains pretty much the same as it has been since the current ball and club regulations have been in place. If current fitness standards among the population remain the same and your course is going to have almost exclusively club golfer rounds then it would seem unlikely that you need to rethink any architecture or set up decisions based on what BDC is doing.