[Randy Thompson]

Anybody else notice that for three weeks in a row, that the bunker prep seems to be following new guidelines with the slopes compacted and unraked which results in almost all balls finishing in a flat lie! Will this be the new standard? Will this be referred to as, the Melbourne effect? I thought bunkers came into being as hazards but that seems to be a conceptual term of the past for the PGA tour!  Yeah or Neah?

[Mark Kiely]

Collin Morikawa would beg to differ:
https://youtu.be/yHkrn0-iHj4

[Randy Thompson]

Yes, those lies can still happen but it looks to me like the intent is to eliminate or significately decrease those type of lies! I don´t know, just asking.

[Matt_Cohn]

Isn’t maintenance also easier if people aren’t climbing up the edges of the bunkers and especially up into the face?

[John Emerson]

Anybody else notice that for three weeks in a row, that the bunker prep seems to be following new guidelines with the slopes compacted and unraked which results in almost all balls finishing in a flat lie! Will this be the new standard? Will this be referred to as, the Melbourne effect? I thought bunkers came into being as hazards but that seems to be a conceptual term of the past for the PGA tour!  Yeah or Neah?

Packed and leveled faces with only raked bottoms has been going on for years.

[Carl Johnson]

For the pros and other super skilled golfers bunkers aren't hazards.  The oft heard cry, "Get in the bunker" is telling.  Winged Foot's set up for the open flips it.  The rough is hazard and the bunkers the safeties.   The rake furrows are generally aligned with the way a ball would come out of the bunker.  I was told by someone who might have been an official (acted like one) that that is the "right way" to rake a bunker.  I recall (I think I do) that Jack tried raking deep furrows in the bunkers at Muirfield Village one year and everyone hated it -- way to hazardous for the pros.  Regarding the so-called Australian bunker prep, my home club started doing that this year -- definitely helps hackers like me.

[mike_beene]

Bunker play is a skill. Even the pros are getting a half to three- fourths stroke penalty when the hit into a bunker.

[Tom_Doak]

Bunker play is a skill. Even the pros are getting a half to three- fourths stroke penalty when the hit into a bunker.

Not really.  Their up and down percentage is fractionally worse than missing the green in the rough the same distance from the pin . . . But fractionally better than being in US Open rough.


Before we started at Memorial Park, I asked Brooks Koepka if he'd mind not having many greenside bunkers, and he said, "When I'm in a greenside bunker, I'm trying to hole the shot."  The pros absolutely don't worry about aiming away from a greenside bunker.

[Sean_A]

Bunker play is a skill. Even the pros are getting a half to three- fourths stroke penalty when the hit into a bunker.

Not really.  Their up and down percentage is fractionally worse than missing the green in the rough the same distance from the pin . . . But fractionally better than being in US Open rough.

Before we started at Memorial Park, I asked Brooks Koepka if he'd mind not having many greenside bunkers, and he said, "When I'm in a greenside bunker, I'm trying to hole the shot."  The pros absolutely don't worry about aiming away from a greenside bunker.

Between 60 and 70% sand save usually leads the tour annually. I think half an average tour leader board averages higher than 50%. This suggests that bunkers could be made more difficult for pros.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

When players, irrespective of their standard of ability, would rather their ball be in a ‘hazard’ than in grass there’s something wrong with the state of the game.
Atb

[David_Tepper]

Well, it didn't take this thread too long to devolve into the perennial "bunkers are too easy" mode.    

While some seem to think you are better off in a bunker than in the rough, the PGA Tour stats suggest otherwise as the conversion ratio from the rough is higher than from bunkers.

And while Brooks Koepka may be thinking of holing every bunker shot, he might also think about spending more time practicing his bunker play as his sand save ratio for the 2020 season was just under 44%, among the worst on the PGA Tour.

But never let the facts get in the way of your opinions!

[Lou_Duran]

Bunker play is a skill. Even the pros are getting a half to three- fourths stroke penalty when the hit into a bunker.

Not really.  Their up and down percentage is fractionally worse than missing the green in the rough the same distance from the pin . . . But fractionally better than being in US Open rough.


Before we started at Memorial Park, I asked Brooks Koepka if he'd mind not having many greenside bunkers, and he said, "When I'm in a greenside bunker, I'm trying to hole the shot."  The pros absolutely don't worry about aiming away from a greenside bunker.

That makes a lot of sense, using Koepka as a proxy for "the pros".     He may be "trying" to hole the shot- does he think the same way on a 60' putt?; Mancil Davis of holes-in-one fame stated that his objective on par 3s was always to hole his tee shot; I think that Jack Nicklaus once said that he never missed a short putt of consequence.  Napoleon Hill mind games which are pretty effective in obtaining better results.  I wonder if you wouldn't have been better off using a Jason Kokrak as your tour consultant at Memorial.  He is far more representative of "the pros" than a once World #1.

[Randy Thompson]

Mike wrote, Bunker play is a skill! Correct and imo different skill levels should be identified through the player´s abilities to recuperate from different lies including downhill lies, side hill lies and uphill lies. Brook also stated to Tom that players are more concerned about unleveled stances from the rough than long grass. Does this not also apply to bunkers that produce complicated stances?
Thomas wrote, “When players, irrespective of their standard of ability, would rather their ball be in a ‘hazard’ than in grass there’s something wrong with the state of the game”. I don´t frequently post on this site because you usually have posted what I was thinking of posting.
David wrote, “But never let the facts get in the way of your opinions”! Lol! Love it and will use this line in the future! Perfect for board meetings!

[jeffwarne]

I'm trying to wrap my arms around this..
Not only do pros expect perfect "advance team" sand (which now members have come to demand)
Now they want balls to collect all in the same level area of a bunker-thus eliminating awkward stances, sidehill lies, and yes even buried lies.


Not sure how anyone on this board should celebrate further homogonization of "hazards" for pros (or members)


Especially during a week when 5 inch rough, rather than "hazards" is dictating/influencing the strategy.
Why bother with interesting varied bunker design when you're just using the bottom.
Just hire a good grass grower with rough as the new "hazard"

[Thomas Dai]

To take this a little further forward.
I’d kind of assumed that in many things, not just playing golf, the wheat is best separated from the chaff when circumstances become for some reason or other more difficult.
On this basis I would have thought that the best golfers, the really elite players, would want things like usual course set-up, conditions, equipment, rules etc to be severely arduous as this way they, the elite, would have the best opportunity to use their special skill levels such that they, the cream, would be most likely to rise to the top.
But this seems counter to whats happened in golf where the desire to make things fairer, easier, eg usual course set-ups, equipment, conditions, rules etc has levelled the playing field to the detriment of the elite. An odd situation in a dog-eat-dog very competitive sport played at the highest level by normally ultra-competitive individuals for vast amounts of money?
Atb

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bunker play is a skill. Even the pros are getting a half to three- fourths stroke penalty when the hit into a bunker.

Not really.  Their up and down percentage is fractionally worse than missing the green in the rough the same distance from the pin . . . But fractionally better than being in US Open rough.


Before we started at Memorial Park, I asked Brooks Koepka if he'd mind not having many greenside bunkers, and he said, "When I'm in a greenside bunker, I'm trying to hole the shot."  The pros absolutely don't worry about aiming away from a greenside bunker.

That makes a lot of sense, using Koepka as a proxy for "the pros".     He may be "trying" to hole the shot- does he think the same way on a 60' putt?; Mancil Davis of holes-in-one fame stated that his objective on par 3s was always to hole his tee shot; I think that Jack Nicklaus once said that he never missed a short putt of consequence.  Napoleon Hill mind games which are pretty effective in obtaining better results.  I wonder if you wouldn't have been better off using a Jason Kokrak as your tour consultant at Memorial.  He is far more representative of "the pros" than a once World #1.

Lou!
It wasn't just hyperbole. Koepka described the story and practice that led to his attacking greenside bunker approach. And Tom's approach to the event was always to make it as successful as possible, which included enticing the best players. They appear to want to play a more interesting golf course. Peace

[Kalen Braley]

Well, it didn't take this thread too long to devolve into the perennial "bunkers are too easy" mode.    

While some seem to think you are better off in the rough than in a bunker, the PGA Tour stats suggest otherwise as the conversion ratio from the rough is higher than from bunkers.

And while Brooks Koepka may be thinking of holing every bunker shot, he might also think about spending more time practicing his bunker play as his sand save ratio for the 2020 season was just under 44%, among the worst on the PGA Tour.

But never let the facts get in the way of your opinions!

David,

I think what you meant say in your 2nd paragraph was for those who "think you are better off in a bunker than rough", which I would concur with.

Scrambling from the Sand - Tour Average 2020: 50.47%
Scrambling from the Rough - Tour Average 2020:  56.40%

However the better miss still seems to be short, or on greens with extended fairway on the sides:
Scrambling from other locations (other than rough, sand, or fringe) Tour Average 2020: 57.93%

2020 for Brooks
Scrambling from sand: 171st - 42%
Srambling from rough: 189st - 45.33%
Scrambling from other locations: 145 - 54.76%

[mike_beene]

Regarding bunker mantenience, where I play the flat part is not flat. However, if ball plugs in steep bank I can't physically even get up there to play the ball any more. Bunkers , rough, you are better off hitting green. I do wish Winged Foot had shaved some banks. Think what chip shots players would end up with.

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

You are right. Thanks for catching my mistake.

Correction has been made!

DT

[David_Tepper]

This thread has taken yet another curious turn. I was under the impression that the Australian sand-belt style of bunker prep & maintenance was widely admired by those who participate here. A number of courses in the U.S. (both and off the PGA Tour) have begun to emulate that style. I thought this would be a good thing. It appears some of us don't think so.      


As regards the bunker play in the US Open at Winged Foot, my quick calculation for the players who made the cut and have played 3 rounds shows that there has been 172 sand saves in 337 attempts. That is a conversion ratio of 51%.


You are welcome to check my math. The data is here: https://www.usopen.com/stats/player-stats.html#!sand-saves

For those of you who think bunkers are too easy, what sort of sand save ratio would make you happy?

[mike_beene]

While I have been led to believe Southern Hemisphere players are good from the sand, in my corner of the world the sand skills are horrible. If people would just learn a basic bunker shot. The last thing we need is a bunch of people getting plugged lies in the face. I don't think our 10 handicappers hit the green half the time from a trap.

[Sean_A]

This thread has taken yet another curious turn. I was under the impression that the Australian sand-belt style of bunker prep & maintenance was widely admired by those who participate here. A number of courses in the U.S. (both and off the PGA Tour) have begun to emulate that style. I thought this would be a good thing. It appears some of us don't think so.      

As regards the bunker play in the US Open at Winged Foot, my quick calculation for the players who made the cut and have played 3 rounds shows that there has been 172 sand saves in 337 attempts. That is a conversion ratio of 51%.

You are welcome to check my math. The data is here: https://www.usopen.com/stats/player-stats.html#!sand-saves

For those of you who think bunkers are too easy, what sort of sand save ratio would make you happy?

I think sand saves should be fairly rare for pros. But I also think golf courses generally have far too many bunkers. It would probably make me sick if I knew the amount of money clubs are spending to frilly their bunkers.

Ciao

[mike_beene]

50% would be fine. Really it is more than a half shot penalty because you lose the opportunity for a birdie.

[Rob Marshall]

The video on line of the WF grounds crew showed them using golf carts to pack down the bunkers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

First, I don't think anyone aims at bunkers, they obviously aim at some portion of the green, no?  If they miss a shot, then they hope it goes in a bunker for that 6% improved chance of recovery.


You could look at it the other way......IF SB are sand saves of 50% vs 56% rough, and they are more enticing as places to miss, wouldn't that entice golfers to aggressively aim at pins protected by sand, i.e., make them more relevant strategically.  If there was an impossible bunker, it would be like a pond, and tend to force more conservative play.


Perhaps strategically, a mix of harder bunkers including a few penal ones would be okay, so you have to strategically pick your spots to be aggressive. 


Placement would matter as well.  I don't think there are stats from bunkers where the green falls away from you (and where you would be tempted to hit near it and above the pin to draw the ball down) or a severe cross slope vs. bunker shots into an upslope, but I bet the shots into an upslope are easier.

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