[Will Lozier]

Having watched a good amount of today's first round, I am wondering why there isn't more variety in the presentation of the greensites.


As one specific example, why isn't the left side of 6 green shaved down the slope to the creek. These guys are giving it a go with driver and a few have hit the green with their tee shot. Wouldn't some fairway height grass around this green (and a few others) make players think their way around this beast a little bit more.


To me, as amazing as these greens are, a lack of variety around them makes the setup a little less interesting. Thoughts?

[Tom_Doak]

The greens themselves are amazing, and there is huge variety [as with Pinehurst No. 2] even though they are all so similar in appearance to a novice.  I noted many years ago that the 18th green was the only one at WFW that wasn't guarded by a bunker on both sides, though that has been changed slightly now.


If I were designing a new course, I would include more little variations of the recoveries around the greens, but Tillinghast did not build those into Winged Foot and I do not think it would be appropriate to change that today.  Several other US Open type courses have added chipping areas where there were none, and it always strikes me as awkward to see them.

[Ira Fishman]

The greens themselves are amazing, and there is huge variety [as with Pinehurst No. 2] even though they are all so similar in appearance to a novice.  I noted many years ago that the 18th green was the only one at WFW that wasn't guarded by a bunker on both sides, though that has been changed slightly now.


If I were designing a new course, I would include more little variations of the recoveries around the greens, but Tillinghast did not build those into Winged Foot and I do not think it would be appropriate to change that today.  Several other US Open type courses have added chipping areas where there were none, and it always strikes me as awkward to see them.

Now I know why after 10 hours of watching that I found the course pretty boring. I am not suggesting changing what Tillinghast intended, but at least on TV every green complex (versus green contours) seemed pretty repetitive.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

The flyover from the other thread is fascinating as it shows the green contours when its over the greens. Some very complex looking breaks and reads to figure out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWl3FJN4ITg&app=desktop

P.S.  I'm not sure I would call those two bunkers on 14 greenside, they are a good 25-30 yards short of the middle of the green! 

[Will Lozier]

The greens themselves are amazing, and there is huge variety [as with Pinehurst No. 2] even though they are all so similar in appearance to a novice....If I were designing a new course, I would include more little variations of the recoveries around the greens, but Tillinghast did not build those into Winged Foot and I do not think it would be appropriate to change that today.  Several other US Open type courses have added chipping areas where there were none, and it always strikes me as awkward to see them.

To me, they look amazing  and thought they presented a huge challenge to these players in how they played today - I do hope they firm up. The green surfaces themselves seem quite varied, even to my novice eye. Note: I have putted on the WF putting green for a few hours - fun story.

I do think there are a handful of great places to have short grass even where AWT didn't intend, especially near one of those tall corners - I envision something like the right side of the 15th at Pac Dunes in a couple spots. And I would agree, the USGA almost always goes overboard in their setup, inevitably shaving areas for the sake of variety.

Or maybe I just want to see Bryson hit 5-wood thru over the front left corner of the 6th green and into that creek ...three times!   Seriously, everybody would really have to think about trying to get pin high from the tee. Even laying up, that second shot could be treacherous to a front left pin and really fun to watch.

[Grant Saunders]

As a slight deviation to topic, does Winged Foot have more holes with the outside of doglegs featuring fairway bunkers than your typical highly ranked course?

[John Foley]

When you play the course there is absolutely no boredom in the presentation. Only exhilaration in the challenge.

[Tom_Doak]

P.S.  I'm not sure I would call those two bunkers on 14 greenside, they are a good 25-30 yards short of the middle of the green! 

That's the change I was referring to.  In the 70s and 80s the bunkers were right up against that green.  Gil changed it; I don't know if that is a restoration or a redesign.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm going to address two points, and I want to thank Will for opening this thread into the eye of the needle.

1. I agree with others and TD that a super should not force something that is not consistent with course presentation, in order to extract penalty in a specific situation. Consistent presentation of fair ground and hazards is key to a major championship Winged Foot is not a shaved areas course. That is more appropriate for links and faux links.

2. I'm sick and offended by this anti-Bryson sentiment. Were you guys anti-Tiger in the late 1990s?

[Carl Rogers]

I observe two general themes:
1. Steep back to front slope with multiple counterslopes that vary from hole to hole
2. Steep drop offs right and left again with variations on each hole


And of course some that do not follow the two themes.

[Ira Fishman]

There was a good story about the restoration in the Wall Street Journal a few days ago. It looks from the pictures as if there were no bunkers on 10 when the course first opened but they were there by the 1929 US Open. Is that accurate? If so, were there any other significant changes in the first few years,


Thanks,


Ira

[John Kirk]

The greens offer a lot of backstops, and opportunities to watch shots played away from the hole.  The relentless difficulty can be a bit dreary, but I sure enjoy the unusual plays around the green.
I just started watching.  The 1st hole location is brutal!

[V. Kmetz]

There was a good story about the restoration in the Wall Street Journal a few days ago. It looks from the pictures as if there were no bunkers on 10 when the course first opened but they were there by the 1929 US Open. Is that accurate? If so, were there any other significant changes in the first few years,


Thanks,


Ira

The very first day the course opened (mid June of 1923) I believe they played a composite of the most finished holes nearest the clubhouse on East and West; I don;t know if 10 had been finished/bunkered by that point

[Kalen Braley]

VK,


I was going to ask, are the courses currently in their original configuration?  Looking at Google Maps took a bit to figure out the routing for each as they both occupy areas on the West and East parts of the property...

[V. Kmetz]

VK,

I was going to ask, are the courses currently in their original configuration?  Looking at Google Maps took a bit to figure out the routing for each as they both occupy areas on the West and East parts of the property...

Yes, this is the original configuration of both courses...

Except for the 1,2, 3 9 and 10 on the East, the remaining 31 holes of both courses are nearly like interlocking fingers, running to the farthest reaches and back to the clubhouse.


I've added this photo with the East course Whited Out... This orientation has North on the right side of the photo

[Rob Marshall]

It looks to me like it would be impossible to play the course for the first time and score well. It looks like a course where local knowledge is key. The plays off the backstops were really amazing.

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