[Tommy Williamsen]

This is a first under dress code for women.

Women: Collared and non-collared golf shirts, collared sleeveless and racerback golf shirts. Shorts and skorts must be tasteful and be long enough to not see your bottom at any time standing or bending down.

[Ted Sturges]

I'd like to thank everyone for all the feedback on this thread.  I appreciate the views of all. 


There are obviously some who embrace and enjoy the golf course music, hats on indoors and flip flop culture.  I respect your preference.  I personally don't want or enjoy that...we simply view it different.  Nothing wrong with that.  I think the "old school" and the neuvo golf cultures will both continue to exist (I just hope the "old school" ways don't ride off into the sunset).   


Like smart phones...some people think they are the greatest thing ever invented.  I see them as purveyors of social retrogradation.  I believe that preserving the customs, honors and traditions of the game of golf is something worth fighting for.  So glad there are others out there who believe the same.


TS

[Dunlop_White]

  There are obviously some who embrace and enjoy the golf course music, hats on indoors and flip flop culture.  I respect your preference.  I personally don't want or enjoy that...we simply view it different.  Nothing wrong with that.  I think the "old school" and the neuvo golf cultures will both continue to exist (I just hope the "old school" ways don't ride off into the sunset).   Like smart phones...some people think they are the greatest thing ever invented.  I see them as purveyors of social retrogradation.  I believe that preserving the customs, honors and traditions of the game of golf is something worth fighting for.  So glad there are others out there who believe the same.TS

Great topic, Ted. Thanks for luring me back in -- and for the kind welcome.

I've always been a traditionalist too -- but clubs are all slowly being pulled in the other direction.

A good friend wrote me his opinion on restricting music on the golf course. He said, it won’t be long before there is nothing FUN about the game.  Let’s outlaw five-somes, six-somes, cross-country golf, dogs on the course, surfboards, speed golf, gambling and drinking even, what else?

Here’s another example of a custom one club covets:  members can basically take a cart and play whenever the hell they want to. Now today, however, the course has started closing for heavy rains and fog. Drives their members bananas, especially those who seldom visit, and seniors who cannot walk 9. They think this is a total breakdown of culture?

Yet, some of us go to such great extents to create proper optics. For instance, what about course etiquette reminders in the cart about how to repair ball marks, fill-in divots, entering bunkers from low points (instead of scaling down the sides), etc..  How does it look to a guest for a club to post this signage to their members. Does it send a message that we do not know how to act on the golf course? Or does it show a type of dedicated ownership or stewardship for its conditioning?

So what are the optics with charging for tees? Looks cheap perhaps, but your tee boxes will be free of clutter at the day's end. Golfers have proven to look for them much harder after a shot, if they pay for them. Unbelievable phenomenon.

A new computer software can also provide proper hole locations to spread foot traffic. It’s non-traditional but it’s making a difference to putting surfaces. Take this amenity one step further —  It can also spit out nice daily pin sheets. Seems resorty but most everyone would use and love these. Geez — What to do?

"No tee times", however, will always remain sacred to our culture at Old Town. Even though activity levels are off the charts, the routing allows you to start at 1, 4, or 10 next to the Clubhouse. Plus, there are tons of 3-hole loops for those growing numbers wanting a shorter, non-traditional golf experience. We have cart fees for 3-holes, 6-holes, 9-holes and 12-holes, but not for 15-holes. I guess, if you've gotten that far, screw it. Might as well ante up for 18.

Besides no tee times, faster players should ALWAYS be allowed to play through. That's about our oldest rule of the few we have.

As listed in post #38, an assessment of alluring golf cultures requires a look at how clubs do about EVERYTHING. …and this is usually determined by the pride, appreciation and respect they have for their traditions and history. Large subject.....

[Will Spivey]

Trappings are not golf.  They're adornments.

I was also going to quote Dunlop's post, but it was too long!


Trappings certainly aren't golf, but that's not the question. Culture doesn't just happen, it evolves, and clubs can nurture a golf culture, or not.


I have been fortunate to be a member at Old Town for 16 years, and I've seen the golf culture there flourish. Adornments don't make the culture, but they both reflect, and more importantly, shape it.


When seeking out new members, they see what the club values. They see that the club puts golf at the center of the experience. This changes who applies (and I suppose who is accepted as a member). Much like the "flywheel effect" in the strategy book Good To Great, once the flywheel starts turning, momentum builds.


Getting the process started takes vision, commitment and courage. Like most great clubs, our process has been driven by a Golf Chairman laser focused on making ours the best golf culture and experience possible. I suspect this is much like Fownes at Oakmont or Roberts at ANCC. The last time I was in DC I went looking for statues memorializing the work of great committees. I'm still looking...

[John Crowley]

Music appears to be a hot topic everywhere. Music may add or compromise your golf culture -- depending on who you ask. The 10x club champ and his son of Generation X are going to have a different take on it.


We provided the following communication to members.....and this has worked nicely.


"In respect for your fellow Member and the Traditions of the game, please refrain from playing loud music on the golf course. Sound often carries farther than we realize. If you can hear music 15 paces away, then the music is too loud and may disrupt others. Please make every effort to follow this parameter, so we will not have to police or restrict this in the future."

Well expressed rule. I would have substituted the word “Traditions” with something like “In respect of and courtesy to your fellow members and their quiet enjoyment of the game”...


Our club has a similar rule that is neither observed nor enforced. Whenever I have asked someone to turn it down or off they have complied.

[John Crowley]

Basically the same with us. I don’t like it but I play early on weekends and it’s a non issue then. Thursday afternoons, “members day” formerly known as men’s day, it gets a little more play. I’m learning to live with it....I don’t get it but it’s everyone’s course. We’re all paying the bills.

You shouldn’t “have to get used to it” it’s is RUDE and intrusive.

[Dunlop_White]

Trappings are not golf.  They're adornments.

I was also going to quote Dunlop's post, but it was too long!

Trappings certainly aren't golf, but that's not the question. Culture doesn't just happen, it evolves, and clubs can nurture a golf culture, or not.

I have been fortunate to be a member at Old Town for 16 years, and I've seen the golf culture there flourish. Adornments don't make the culture, but they both reflect, and more importantly, shape it.

When seeking out new members, they see what the club values. They see that the club puts golf at the center of the experience. This changes who applies (and I suppose who is accepted as a member). Much like the "flywheel effect" in the strategy book Good To Great, once the flywheel starts turning, momentum builds.

Getting the process started takes vision, commitment and courage. Like most great clubs, our process has been driven by a Golf Chairman laser focused on making ours the best golf culture and experience possible. I suspect this is much like Fownes at Oakmont or Roberts at ANCC. The last time I was in DC I went looking for statues memorializing the work of great committees. I'm still looking...

Will -- much appreciated. Agree on your take on adornments and governance -- may even post some MacKenzie quotes on the subject, if interested?


And the "flywheel effect" analogy seems appropriate in shaping culture. It's time-acquired and most difficult to purchase. (Should we read From Good to Great?)
 

[Sean_A]

I am confused as to why any and all cultures can't exist. Although this discussion seems as much about continuing the culture more or less as it exists at certain clubs. I see no issue about this, but then I don't recall many onerous club rules. There are some I think are stupid, but very few which are onerous. Diversity is good among clubs. Find your niche and enjoy. Live and let live. I really don't understand the angst. All sorts of club culture can be great if the members support and enhance the culture.

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

I am confused as to why any and all cultures can't exist. Although this discussion seems as much about continuing the culture more or less as it exists at certain clubs. I see no issue about this, but then I don't recall many onerous club rules. There are some I think are stupid, but very few which are onerous. Diversity is good among clubs. Find your niche and enjoy. Live and let live. I really don't understand the angst. All sorts of club culture can be great if the members support and enhance the culture.

Ciao

Exactly.  I don't think you can say one culture or another is superior for GOLF.  The golf is not intrinsically linked with the trappings.  Or with the degree of diversity of social status, race or religion among the membership.  If forced to pick a predictive trapping, I'd say in my limited experience in US clubs it would be old school rainfall showerheads with firehose water pressure.

[Kalen Braley]

Don't be absurd guys.  You can't have a real club without proper adornments, Oak framed pictures, and walnut tables! It just can't be done! 

[archie_struthers]

 


Waded thru a lot there before I opined. Think it's one of the hardest things for an operator to get his arms around. Every place is different and some need members more than others so it begets differing opinions.


Fast play a must ! Unless its late afternoon and no one is around,then do whatever you want! If someone pulls up , wave them thru. Dress code and hats can be tough, I've seen members that never tucked their shirts in but were impeccably well dressed. thye sure looked better than me    so unless it's really out their or offensive live and let live.


Perhaps hats in the grill room but not in a more formal dining room if one exists, again it's related specifically to the locale and often the net worth of the membership. If forced to a vote, no hats.


Five-somes are fine with me, but it's not a right. If you can't keep up with five you lose the privilege so be careful, needs some good management to enforce this well but in the end it's pace of play not number that matters.


I feel Tim Martin's pain on music , tough one where if it becomes a problem address it, more the earbuds kind of guy if you want music, but it's not legal in many events....believe it or not


overall respect your fellow golfers and try to keep your powder dry unless it's really bad

[Jeff Schley]

Don't be absurd guys.  You can't have a real club without proper adornments, Oak framed pictures, and walnut tables! It just can't be done! 

Agreed, but left out hibiscus infused cold towels and valet parking.

[Peter Pallotta]

Don't be absurd guys.  You can't have a real club without proper adornments, Oak framed pictures, and walnut tables! It just can't be done! 

Agreed, but left out hibiscus infused cold towels and valet parking.

One of my favourite things about Crystal Downs was that it didn't try to make me feel 'special'...or 'pampered'...or 'privileged to be there'. Instead, and precisely because it didn't try for such things, it made me feel 'comfortable' -- indeed, just about more comfortable than I've ever felt at a golf club (public or private).
Hats off to CD -- I think one of the hardest feats to achieve is to make another person feel comfortable. It's a gentle grace.
Peter
PS - I know one only a little bit and the other not at all save for a brief meeting, but I think I can understand why Tom Doak and Mike Devries are members there -- as people, I mean, not as architects.
 

[Tommy Williamsen]

The only rule at one of my former clubs was; be a gentleman.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Don't be absurd guys.  You can't have a real club without proper adornments, Oak framed pictures, and walnut tables! It just can't be done! 

Agreed, but left out hibiscus infused cold towels and valet parking.

One of my favourite things about Crystal Downs was that it didn't try to make me feel 'special'...or 'pampered'...or 'privileged to be there'. Instead, and precisely because it didn't try for such things, it made me feel 'comfortable' -- indeed, just about more comfortable than I've ever felt at a golf club (public or private).
Hats off to CD -- I think one of the hardest feats to achieve is to make another person feel comfortable. It's a gentle grace.
Peter
PS - I know one only a little bit and the other not at all save for a brief meeting, but I think I can understand why Tom Doak and Mike Devries are members there -- as people, I mean, not as architects.
 

Peter, I cannot agree more.


The clubs in GB&I (almost all new) that chase that American service model of an in-your-face welcome are the ones that I actively avoid.


Luckily, most of our clubs require nothing more than you park your car, check-in at the pro shop and then look after yourself.


That said, it’s a reflection on me and my tastes. Plenty of others thrive on this kind of stuff.

[Sean_A]

I agreed with you Ally. One of the cringiest things is a group welcome on the 1st tee. These guys often give out a welcome pack on the tee and all I am thinking is I don't want to lug this stuff around for 18 holes. Just let us get on with it. Even table service feels weird 😎.

Ciao

[David Ober]

I'm 53 years old and have been a member of three different private clubs with three very different cultures since I was old enough to walk. My preferences:

• Collared shirts that are (mostly) tucked in on the golf course is fine with me
• Hats allowed inside in the "grill" area. off everywhere else
• Flip-flops/sandals definitely allowed on the putting green, chipping area, outside patio for eating, etc. It can get to 115 degrees where I live and is regularly 95 to 105 for five months a year.
• Music (which I generally detest on the golf course) allowed, but must be kept low. Our club has done a great job with this
• Phone calls allowed virtually anywhere outside, but walk away from others to take them and find a quiet spot (our club also does a great job with this)
• Gambling definitely allowed

[Ira Fishman]

I agreed with you Ally. One of the cringiest things is a group welcome on the 1st tee. These guys often give out a welcome pack on the tee and all I am thinking is I don't want to lug this stuff around for 18 holes. Just let us get on with it. Even table service feels weird 😎.

Ciao

Kingsbarns took the cake in the bad way. Having played Castle Stuart the year before, I knew what was coming so wandered off a bit. The Starter insisted that I join the others to hear his spiel.


Ira

[David Ober]

The only rule at one of my former clubs was; be a gentleman.

Well that solves it... 

[Kalen Braley]

The only rule at one of my former clubs was; be a gentleman.

Well that solves it... 

Agreed!  A Gentleman's club...now we're getting somewhere!

[Jeff Schley]

The only rule at one of my former clubs was; be a gentleman.

Well that solves it... 

Agreed!  A Gentleman's club...now we're getting somewhere!

Kalen we can only imagine what your teachers had to deal with in school.

[David Ober]

Double post

[Rick Lane]

Pace of play culture.  My club has 4 hours as the OUTSIDE limit and has a guideline for 3:45 as normal.  Get over 4 hours, or even get out of position on our busy course, and someone will say something (nicely) to you.


Hats fine, but not backward ever.


Cell phones fine, just play quickly.


Finding an empty spot on the course and playing a few holes, 3,5, 7 holes, just fine.  Have fun, move along!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't think I will ever join a full service "country club" again. The difference in the culture is amazing. A golf club is about golf. There are fewer rules and generally a smaller membership. One of the clubs was individual membership. My wife had to pay a green fee. Most of the clubs were a second membership club so their families had a place to swim etc. All played fewer than 18,000 rounds a year. Give me a golf club to play the rest of my life and I will die happy.

[Tim Martin]

As time marches on I find the college golf atmosphere/culture most to my liking. Places like Yale, Taconic, and the Orchards are tough to beat because of the strength of the golf course, pace of play and congenial atmosphere.

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