[Tom_Doak]

At Ron M's suggestion (!), I am going to start this thread to see how good I think PDGC really is.


For bonus points, I'll throw in TPC Sawgrass and Whistling Straits as comparisons, and give three numbers for how I think PDGC stands against the three.


1st hole:  -1 vs TGC     AS vs TPC     AS vs WS
2nd hole:  AS              +1               +1
3rd:         -1                +1              AS
4th:         -1               AS               -1
5th:         AS              +1               AS
6th:         -1               +1               AS
7th:         AS              +1               -1
8th:         +1              AS               AS
9th:         +2              -1                +1


10th:       +2              AS               +1
11th:       +2              -1                +1
12th:       +1              AS*             AS
13th:       AS              -1                -1
14th:       AS              -2                -1
15th:       AS              -1                -1
16th:       -1               -1                -2
17th:       -2               -2                -2
18th:       -1               -1                -1


Most of Ron's supportive points about Pete Dye Golf Club were about the front nine, and I think my *subjective* comparisons back that up . . . the front nine is as good as most of Pete's other courses, but the back nine, not so much.  IMO.  But, overall, it's arguably just as good as some of Pete's much more celebrated courses.

[Matt Kardash]

Tom, it's funny that you made this thread, because just after starting my thread yesterday I did the same mental exercise, comparing PDGC to Whistling Straits and Kiawah. I came up with the same conclusion. The front 9 is arguably his best front 9 ever. The course definitely stalls a little on the back. There is nothing bad about the back nine, but if the back was as good as the front the course would easily be a 9, IMO.
By the way, I feel like now that the PGA Tour has removed the mound left of 7 at TPC there is no way that hole is equal to 7 at PDGC. The 7th at TPC lost a lot of character in my eyes now that there is just a giant lake left of the hole.

[Jonathan Cummings]

As the long time director of the GW rating panel, The Pete Dye Club is one of the very few courses Brad Klein, out of the 1000 or so he rated, gave a "10" to.  He wasn't alone.  On GW's modern list TPDC spent 15 or years in the top 10 making it as high as number 2 (behind Sand Hills) in 1998-99.

[Tom_Doak]

By the way, I feel like now that the PGA Tour has removed the mound left of 7 at TPC there is no way that hole is equal to 7 at PDGC. The 7th at TPC lost a lot of character in my eyes now that there is just a giant lake left of the hole.

I have not seen that.  Ick.

[Tom_Doak]

As the long time director of the GW rating panel, The Pete Dye Club is one of the very few courses Brad Klein, out of the 1000 or so he rated, gave a "10" to.  He wasn't alone.  On GW's modern list TPDC spent 15 or years in the top 10 making it as high as number 2 (behind Sand Hills) in 1998-99.

I totally missed that it was ever rated that highly.  That had to be one of the biggest divergences with the other magazines' lists.  Where is it now?

[Daryl David]

As the long time director of the GW rating panel, The Pete Dye Club is one of the very few courses Brad Klein, out of the 1000 or so he rated, gave a "10" to.  He wasn't alone.  On GW's modern list TPDC spent 15 or years in the top 10 making it as high as number 2 (behind Sand Hills) in 1998-99.

I totally missed that it was ever rated that highly.  That had to be one of the biggest divergences with the other magazines' lists.  Where is it now?

Pete Dye Golf Club is #37 on the GW 2020 Modern List. It fell from #16 on the 2019 list.

[Jonathan Cummings]

As the long time director of the GW rating panel, The Pete Dye Club is one of the very few courses Brad Klein, out of the 1000 or so he rated, gave a "10" to.  He wasn't alone.  On GW's modern list TPDC spent 15 or years in the top 10 making it as high as number 2 (behind Sand Hills) in 1998-99.

I totally missed that it was ever rated that highly.  That had to be one of the biggest divergences with the other magazines' lists.  Where is it now?

It was replaced in the number 2 ranking by a little upstart course on the Oregon coast! ;-)

[Matt Kardash]

By the way, I feel like now that the PGA Tour has removed the mound left of 7 at TPC there is no way that hole is equal to 7 at PDGC. The 7th at TPC lost a lot of character in my eyes now that there is just a giant lake left of the hole.

I have not seen that.  Ick.

Here is the 7th at TPC since the last round of changes by the Tour
https://www.golfchannel.com/video/players-2019-tpc-sawgrass-7th-hole-review

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom, this is difficult exercise. I'd love to participate and I have played all the courses you are using at least twice, but I don't remember all the individual holes well enough to give a thoughtful response.


I do like 18 at Pete Dye but would go with 18 at WS.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, this is difficult exercise. I'd love to participate and I have played all the courses you are using at least twice, but I don't remember all the individual holes well enough to give a thoughtful response.


I do like 18 at Pete Dye but would go with 18 at WS.

There were a couple I couldn't remember eell, either - you just mark those down as an L 


I really do not like that 18th green at WS (ir much else about the hole) so it would lose to the TPC also.  The forced carry on 18 at The Golf Club is very unusual for Pete's work, but it was meant to be a club for men only.

[David_Elvins]

Tom,


How does the match turn out if you switch the nines at PDGC?

[Matt MacIver]

If the front is better than the back then flips the 9s...worked for another course and bumped its rating Up,a full point. 

[Jim Franklin]

I really liked #18 at Pete Dye GC. In fact, I have a picture of it in my office right next to a picture of #11 at Rock Creek Cattle.

[William_G]

the fake lake similarities between WS and PDGC are not exciting to me, and WS is all fake, cartball at PDGC and had caddies at WS


love the Golf Club for a private club, walked and carried


love TPC for a resort and event course, same with Kiawah, walked and carried/caddy both


Harbour Town had it's day but is mostly a real estate development, walked and carried


  funny thing is one of the best things about PDGC is that FLW's Falling Water is on your way to the Pittsburgh Airport and that is a big deal

[Tom_Doak]

If the front is better than the back then flips the 9s...worked for another course and bumped its rating Up,a full point. 

I know that's the conventional wisdom but I don't really agree with it.  The problem is that the back just doesn't have as many quality holes as the front does, and it doesn't matter much which order they come in.


Plus, in this case, the first and tenth holes would be worse if you swapped their places in the round.  Having to play the 10th as the opening hole would be a rough start.

[Jonathan Cummings]

If the front is better than the back then flips the 9s...worked for another course and bumped its rating Up,a full point. 

I know that's the conventional wisdom but I don't really agree with it.  The problem is that the back just doesn't have as many quality holes as the front does, and it doesn't matter much which order they come in.


Plus, in this case, the first and tenth holes would be worse if you swapped their places in the round.  Having to play the 10th as the opening hole would be a rough start.

Wow - how true.  Losing a ball on the first hole of a course ranks up there with the biggest rating deflaters for a course evaluator.

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