[Joe Hancock]

Sand Hills is pretty safe.

[ward peyronnin]

Could it be that the preponderance of posters on this thread indulged in too much rock n roll and now simply cant hear a far yodel?
Yelling fore is not for the faint of heart.

Litigation is probably dependant on what a lot of litigation is- finessing the witnesses, the judge, & the jury rather than the rule of law

[Sean_A]

I'm not sure why that would be a debate?

...

Neither am I. However, there have been many posters on this site that claim that trees don't improve safety, and even a few that claim a course is safer without any trees.

The only times I have ever seen somebody hit on a course is by standing in a stupid place or not having a clue a ball was coming their way due to trees. I will take line if sight safety over trees being the safety barrier 9 times out of 10. I am stunned to hear that some on this board don't pay attention to other golfers when playing. That sounds like lunacy to me.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

I'm not sure why that would be a debate?

...

Neither am I. However, there have been many posters on this site that claim that trees don't improve safety, and even a few that claim a course is safer without any trees.

The only times I have ever seen somebody hit on a course is by standing in a stupid place or not having a clue a ball was coming their way due to trees. I will take line if sight safety over trees being the safety barrier 9 times out of 10. I am stunned to hear that some on this board don't pay attention to other golfers when playing. That sounds like lunacy to me.

Ciao

So what you are saying is that since no one yelled fore, the trees are at fault.
I don't see what paying attention to other golfers gains you. Most of the time you can't see where their ball is going when struck 250 yards away. So what good does it do you to pay attention to them.

I've played enough foursomes at GCA events to know that at shorter distances than 250 yards the players that have gone ahead cannot see the ball a high percentage of the time. One time when the ball was hit towards them, and fore was yelled, they had no clue where the ball was. Even after the ball landed close by to them, and they heard it land close to them, they still could not find it.

The equipment needs to be rolled back significantly so that the fine old tradition of playing foursomes can regain a footing in the golfing landscape instead of being an exercise in putting oneself in harms way.

[Sean_A]

Garland, you and I play a different game. I pay attention to other golfers for my own safety. I can't tell you the number of times I pointed out to a playing companion that somebody is hitting in our general direction. Trust me, paying attention to your surroundings helps keep you safe on a course in a way trees rarely can. I am used to it because of all the nut job courses I play. Besides, these smash mouth golfers today are hitting over trees. So lots of times they can't see anybody to yell fore at. The real truth is most of the time trees were planted/allowed to grow because people liked it. Now they say trees are for safety. It's a load of bollocks.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sand Hills is pretty safe.

How many acres is it built over? Come to the UK where most architects get compact sites and safety buffers become a real issue.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the more technical insights above Jeff.
Sean has a very valid point about attention. The hits and near hits I've seen have been on avenue like tree-lined courses not on open aspect courses. Perhaps a more open aspect increases attention and awareness of others and the need for care?
As to golf balls hitting trees, rebounds cause damage too. Maybe some folks have a special insight so they know in advance which way the rebound is going to travel?
And in relation to distance, it's not that the envelope has never existed, it's that the envelope has now gotten and continues to get bigger plus the world has become a more H&S and claims based place and modern day long-ball players these days also hit the ball on a far higher trajectory than in the past.
atb

[Tim Martin]

It would seem the biggest danger comes in the form of parallel holes. I agree with Sean that much is alleviated by awareness. It’s also a game that the uncommon seems to happen more frequently than we would like to admit.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thanks for the more technical insights above Jeff.
Sean has a very valid point about attention. The hits and near hits I've seen have been on avenue like tree-lined courses not on open aspect courses. Perhaps a more open aspect increases attention and awareness of others and the need for care?
As to golf balls hitting trees, rebounds cause damage too. Maybe some folks have a special insight so they know in advance which way the rebound is going to travel?
And in relation to distance, it's not that the envelope has never existed, it's that the envelope has now gotten and continues to get bigger plus the world has become a more H&S and claims based place and modern day long-ball players these days also hit the ball on a far higher trajectory than in the past.
atb

I don't think anyone has gotten down to quantifying just where hits come from to a large degree.  Again, there are about 40K golf ball injuries annually, and 25 Mil rounds, or about 1 per every 625 rounds played.  Even that seems high, because the average course plays about that number of rounds per week, and I don't hear of too many saying they have a ball strike a week.  Of course, that comes for a lawyers website, which probably takes the highest possible number to make there case for....well, making a case.


I agree awareness helps, but it depends on the tree type. I'm thinking of the typically man planted parkland courses I tend to play (in Chicago growing up and now in Texas).  Usually not so thick that you can't see the next fw, etc.  I have been hit twice (once golfing at age 12, once working on maintenance) and not since then (1974)  That said, neither of us should presume our limited experience mirrors the typical one, so I'll leave that one alone for now. 


Matt,


Again, perhaps with no statistics, but as designers, we don't worry a lot about 4 scattered golfers on parallel holes, but try to avoid putting tees and greens either inside any dogleg, or 160-220 off the right side of a tee.  If anywhere close, we even put the cart path of the tee or green on the far side, if possible.  The theory is you have 4 (maybe 6 with caddies, or maybe 8 if on a backed up par 3 tee) clustered together.  Ball strikes to any exact place are rare, but if more golfers are side by side, and more likely to be standing rather than moving, the chances go up.


And, thinking about it from a legal perspective, I would bet the courts would say our obligation is to avoid (via spacing) then mitigate (with barriers) then warn golfers of possible danger.  But, laws vary among states, and there are some weird (to me) rulings and justifications.

[Bernie Bell]

See reply #3 from Mr. Nagle.  Pretty sure he's discussing holes 2 and 3 at Seven Oaks.  It would have to be a wicked bad tee shot on 3 to hit 2 tee box, but I'm sure it's happened. 


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61813.msg1467955.html#msg1467955

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you and I play a different game. I pay attention to other golfers for my own safety.

So what makes think I don't pay attention. You are completely ignoring my primary point that even if you pay attention you can't see the ball coming. I've often ducked and covered when being within reach of other players even when they don't yell fore, because you don't know if they assume you can see the ball coming.

I can't tell you the number of times I pointed out to a playing companion that somebody is hitting in our general direction. Trust me, paying attention to your surroundings helps keep you safe on a course in a way trees rarely can.

If you ignore the fact that seeing a ball travel from the club head over 200 yards away is seldom possible, then you aren't very trustworthy.

I am used to it because of all the nut job courses I play.

So don't play courses frequented by nut jobs. If you mean courses with limited real estate, I doubt many of them are cramped as much as the one I play as a member.

Besides, these smash mouth golfers today are hitting over trees. So lots of times they can't see anybody to yell fore at.

So you are saying that British golfers are as inconsiderate on course as they are driving roundabouts. Actually, they are more considerate in roundabouts, because they are always warning with the horn.

The real truth is most of the time trees were planted/allowed to grow because people liked it. Now they say trees are for safety. It's a load of bollocks.

You must play courses with plenty of real estate. If you have very limited real estate, you plant trees for safety.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

While we eliminate separation barrier when we can't space fw far enough apart, i.e., trees, so golfers can see other golfers, let's eliminate "Fore!" because most of the time, when players should duck, instead they look up to see where the ball is coming from.  That would really be safer, wouldn't it? (and I am only half kidding.....)


Unless you get those marvelously skilled TV camera folks who can track a ball in mid air so well, overall, I don't think having line of sight to other golfers improves reflexes or anything else.  Maybe someone will invent a "shields up" force field that can activate as quick as an air bag around golfers after sensing an incoming projectile.  Again, only half kidding.  Wouldn't be surprised if something was already in infant stages of study.  Maybe by that guy who jet packed around LAX last week.....

[Jerry Kluger]

I was fortunate to play Winged Foot East and West in one day a few years ago and I remember one hole which curved - not a dogleg - which brought a house into play and one of the players hit a ball in the yard and we were told by the caddies that we were not allowed to retrieve a ball from the yard even if you could do it without walking onto the property.


I was also told that at Quaker Ridge there was a building lot on the corner of a dogleg and when a house was built the homeowner successfully sued the club and they were forced to redesign the hole so that balls would not wind up in their yard. 

[Sean_A]

While we eliminate separation barrier when we can't space fw far enough apart, i.e., trees, so golfers can see other golfers, let's eliminate "Fore!" because most of the time, when players should duck, instead they look up to see where the ball is coming from.  That would really be safer, wouldn't it? (and I am only half kidding.....)


Unless you get those marvelously skilled TV camera folks who can track a ball in mid air so well, overall, I don't think having line of sight to other golfers improves reflexes or anything else.  Maybe someone will invent a "shields up" force field that can activate as quick as an air bag around golfers after sensing an incoming projectile.  Again, only half kidding.  Wouldn't be surprised if something was already in infant stages of study.  Maybe by that guy who jet packed around LAX last week.....

Bad take. If people are too stupid to duck when they hear fore that's their problem. I hear fore I duck and cover my head.

I am understand why folks get hit now. They don't bother paying attention to their surroundings and they trust in trees as magic pill to protect them.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't yell "fore" if I know — and I'm basically applying the standard of virtual certainty from the Rules of Golf — the ball will miss people. It might scare them by landing close to them, but I've seen situations where someone yells fore on a ball that's going to miss people, and the people ran into the ball trying to get out of the area.

I was taught to turn away, make myself small, and cover my vital/susceptible parts, so I don't know what the "runners" are doing, but I've seen it enough I'd rather occasionally scare someone than have them run into a ball trying to get away.

I tell my college golf team to do the same: if they KNOW a ball will not hit me, to not yell fore.

Of course, if they are (or I am) unsure, I'll yell fore and hope the people duck and cover.

I don't have occasion to yell "fore" — for my ball or those of the people with whom I play or the people I am watching — much more than once or twice per year. Four times max.

[Tim Martin]

I don't have occasion to yell "fore" — for my ball or those of the people with whom I play or the people I am watching — much more than once or twice per year. Four times max.

You have data for the amount of times you and your playing partners need to yell “fore” on an annual basis? Impressive.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't yell "fore" if I know — and I'm basically applying the standard of virtual certainty from the Rules of Golf — the ball will miss people. It might scare them by landing close to them, but I've seen situations where someone yells fore on a ball that's going to miss people, and the people ran into the ball trying to get out of the area.

I was taught to turn away, make myself small, and cover my vital/susceptible parts, so I don't know what the "runners" are doing, but I've seen it enough I'd rather occasionally scare someone than have them run into a ball trying to get away.

I tell my college golf team to do the same: if they KNOW a ball will not hit me, to not yell fore.

Of course, if they are (or I am) unsure, I'll yell fore and hope the people duck and cover.

I don't have occasion to yell "fore" — for my ball or those of the people with whom I play or the people I am watching — much more than once or twice per year. Four times max.

Erik,
This assumes that you have a clear angle of view of your potential targets. On numerous holes with heavy tree cover/ fences/buildings etc. you can't see where your ball is going to land.  Nor do you know if there are people there, so you must yell fore just in case. What about in a row of houses and you hook / slice one..... people do use their backyard. Don't know why you would want to survey the potential targets before simply yelling fore?

I don't see any sensible argument to not yet fore. If someone hits a ball within 10 yards or so of me and doesn't yell fore I'm pissed. What harm does it do to be prudent? If someone runs into a ball, it isn't a plan, only their reaction. What are you going to say, "why did you run into my ball?" You yell fore and your liability for what happens is now in the hands of the golf god's, not you.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

This assumes that you have a clear angle of view of your potential targets.

Of course. That's included in the "virtual certainty" bit.

When I'm not virtually certain, I yell fore.

Don't know why you would want to survey the potential targets before simply yelling fore?

I didn't say I "would want to survey the potential targets."

I don't see any sensible argument to not yet fore.

Because, as I said, people sometimes run away, and in doing so, run into the golf ball that would have hit them.

If someone hits a ball within 10 yards or so of me and doesn't yell fore I'm pissed.

Well, I'd rather you be pissed than me yell fore, have you run away, and get plonked in the head. I'd rather you be upset than injured (or dead).

If a ball is not going to hit them, I don't yell "fore." Yelling "fore" in that situation increases the likelihood that they will get hit, from roughly 0% (they could decide to just spontaneously start running in a different direction on their own, I guess) to a higher number.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I said above I don't have to yell "fore" more than about twice a year, four times max, and confirmed that with a guy I play with somewhat often (a few times a month).

How often are you guys yelling "fore," whether on behalf of your own shot or someone else's? How often does a ball you could yell "fore" for land within 25 yards of someone else in another group? What's the cause, if you can give a reason: a horribly offline shot, a shot played too quickly, a course that's too narrow and/or has you playing along a line that's close to another place where people often are… something else?

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,

I guess I've never really paid close attention in watching other groups who are facing an incoming shell.  When I hear Fore I stay right where I am and just cover up my noggin'.  It never occurred to me to run, perhaps its a variant on the fight or flight response.

As for those who believe trees don't provide protection, i'm inclined to compare this to the anti-science deniers.  Its just like gravity, you are subject to it regardless of your personal feelings.

[Jeff Schley]

I said above I don't have to yell "fore" more than about twice a year, four times max, and confirmed that with a guy I play with somewhat often (a few times a month).

How often are you guys yelling "fore," whether on behalf of your own shot or someone else's? How often does a ball you could yell "fore" for land within 25 yards of someone else in another group? What's the cause, if you can give a reason: a horribly offline shot, a shot played too quickly, a course that's too narrow and/or has you playing along a line that's close to another place where people often are… something else?

So before you hypothesized that you better stop yelling fore to prevent people from running into your ball if you thought they wouldn't be hit, how many times a year were you yelling fore?
Also for children who play golf is this what you would teach them? Hit, look to see what it is going for people (survey), then if you are sure it wont' hit them stay quiet? Or is this like a drivers license and you earn it with age?
I'm sorry, I think I'm being very rational here and because you have saw 1-2 people in your life run when someone yells fore you think it better to start a silent revolution. I am trying to think and actually can't recall a time I have been in a group where someone has run away, upon hearing fore. Duck and cover is pretty much all I have seen people do. Most people I play with haven't ran in probably 20-30 years anywhere for anything.

[Thomas Dai]

As an aside, did anyone happen to notice the headwear worn by the marshalls at last years Masters, ie 2019? Looked like yellow construction workers type hardhats.
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When I hear Fore I stay right where I am and just cover up my noggin'.  It never occurred to me to run, perhaps its a variant on the fight or flight response.

That's what I was taught, too.

As for those who believe trees don't provide protection, i'm inclined to compare this to the anti-science deniers.  Its just like gravity, you are subject to it regardless of your personal feelings.

Trees definitely provide protection.

So before you hypothesized that you better stop yelling fore to prevent people from running into your ball if you thought they wouldn't be hit, how many times a year were you yelling fore?

Not much more often. The situation doesn't come up all that frequently that I have virtual certainty.

Also for children who play golf is this what you would teach them? Hit, look to see what it is going for people (survey), then if you are sure it wont' hit them stay quiet? Or is this like a drivers license and you earn it with age?

I'd tell them, as I told my daughter, "If you think your ball (or the ball of someone you're playing with, etc.) might hit someone else, yell 'FORE' as loudly as you can."

I'm sorry, I think I'm being very rational here

As am I. If a ball is not going to hit someone, yelling "fore" only increases the odds that they'll get plunked.

and because you have saw 1-2 people in your life run when someone yells fore you think it better to start a silent revolution.

Did I say 1-2 people somewhere?

I'm not starting a silent revolution. If you hit a tee shot and the group in front of you is 100 yards past your typical range, do you yell fore? Why not? Because you know the ball is not going to hit them. How about 75 yards? 50? Where do you draw the line? Obviously you have one, or you'd yell "fore" on just about every full swing you make on a golf course, no?

I feel like maybe you're picturing that I'm watching balls flying toward distant parties and not yelling "fore" because I think the ball will land four feet from them or something. Edit: In other words, perhaps your definition of a ball landing "close" to someone is different than my definition? I'm not sure what the number is for me - it might be different for a driver versus a sand wedge, too - but I'm yelling "fore" if there's a chance that someone will be hit.

[Kalen Braley]

With all the courses I've played thru the years I can only think of one where the trees may have given a false sense of security.  It was the NLE Cypress Course at Sunol Valley in the SF Bay area.

The trees were mature, but fairly small and easy to hit over, even with low flying clubs. Combined with the holes being jammed in on a tight routing and it was certainly a hard hat special kind of place.  Despite being a decent location and a nice enough round, I never went back...

P.S. The course did close due to a massive drop of rounds from its hey day in the 90s to closure in 2015, but not sure if that was the reason.  There was also a second course on the property, but neither was anything special DS 2-3s.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Since this seems to be a point of discussion, I've thought about it a bit, and I have to modify what I said or implied above: I can recall at least three times when I've run or moved after hearing "fore." I almost always "duck and cover," but in these cases I did not.

All three times I was observing golf being played (you do a lot of that as a college coach). In two of the instances, I ran away and the ball landed where I was standing. In one of those two, I ran under a shelter a few yards away. In the third instance, I ran to the right when I was left of a green, and the ball landed closer to me than it would have. This was not one of my college players.

They know to yell fore if the ball has a chance of hitting me. If I'm near to something that provides cover, I'll sometimes cover my head and get behind it. If I'm out in the open, odds are I'm watching the ball, but if I am not, I'll duck and cover.

I just asked my wife, as she watches my daughter play in events with me, and she said she sometimes runs if she can get behind a thick tree trunk or something, but otherwise ducks/covers. Then she said she usually just hides behind me.

I can see the logic in doing both, but usually, duck/cover wins out. But, still, I have to take back what I said above about how I always duck/cover. I do not. I have also run in the past. It's a little game theory, really: if someone is yelling "fore" the assumption is the ball is going to hit me or be close to hitting me. If I'm in the open, I feel like I duck and cover. If I'm near a thick tree, I'll probably take a step or three and get behind it. (This isn't included in "running"). And there are times, still, as I noted that I'll run: most often when my college kids yell "fore" because we've established a rule there.


Edit: I can see logic in both running or ducking/covering. It depends on your environment. If you can take four steps to get behind a wall or a building or a thick tree, that makes sense to me. When watching golf tournaments, we'll generally see the balls being hit toward us, but when there are trees, we're often standing near them so they can shield us from balls coming toward us. I don't consider it "running" to take a step backward and cover our heads if someone flares a driver toward us.

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