What would Donald J. Ross, jr., have done with Berckmans Nursery property?

[Dave Maberry]

Bob,


The following is from Lee Pace's "Pinehurst Stories". The article is "Donald Ross" by Dick Taylor. It reads "The great Bob Jones had praised Ross's work at Augusta CC, according to Charles Price, and Ross thought he had an agreement with this legend that he would build Jones's dream course in his native Georgia. But when Jones played Cypress Point in California, he nominated its architect, Mackenzie, for the co-design that is now Augusta National GC." Jones had been in California for US Amateur, was eliminated early and subsequently played Cypress Point. The story goes that Ross concentrated on #2 the rest of his life to make it the finest course in the South.

Charles Price likely didn't know that MacKenzie had walked The Old Course with O.B. Keeler during The Open in 1927, and met Jones there.  Maybe Donald Ross didn't know, either.

Jones's meeting of Mackenzie and his playing of Cypress Point and Pasatiempo in 1929 are further discussed in Stan Byrdy's "The Augusta National Golf Club". Because Ross had designed Augusta CC and Forest Hills GC in Augusta may have influenced Jones to go with something different. The mutual reverence of St Andrews by Mackenzie and Jones turned the scales to Mackenzie.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff B. or Tom D. or any other architect-- if Bobby Jones had called you,what kind of golf course would ANGC be today?

It's impossible to answer, honestly, knowing MacKenzie's routing so clearly.  It's a fine routing and I doubt anyone else would have done better.


Most would have tried not to have so many steep uphill shots, but I don't know if that's realistic given the nature of the site and the boundaries of the property.  There's some good, flatter property where the parking lots are today, but it wasn't available to use back then.

When were you last at Augusta?
Those previously "flat parking lots" are now a massive entrance, new driving range, media stage and press center.
The parking lots are now in what was a rolling 1950's ranch house neighborhood accross Berkman's road(which has been relocated), where only one holdout house is left.They certainly aren't flat, are wooded and are quite parklike.

[Tom_Doak]

When were you last at Augusta?
Those previously "flat parking lots" are now a massive entrance, new driving range, media stage and press center.
The parking lots are now in what was a rolling 1950's ranch house neighborhood accross Berkman's road(which has been relocated), where only one holdout house is left.They certainly aren't flat, are wooded and are quite parklike.

I was there last year, on Wednesday.  I was talking about the new parking lots.  Indeed, they aren't flat, but they aren't as steeply hilly as the rest of the golf course.  But I forgot that half of them are even across the new road.

[Jeff_Brauer]

An aside: I wonder if the question would've garnered more responses/greater detail with a different hypothetical architect, eg Colt or Fowler or CBM, or anachronistically, Jeff B or Tom D or Jack N.

Sorry, been busy.  Of course impossible to answer, but my guess is it wouldn't be much different than the other dozen times I have worked with a tour pro (or in this case, champion amateur golfer).  I think we would have had an initial meeting discussing some parameters, like his love of St. Andrews and the idea of implementing, but not copying hole concepts.


I would then bring back a few routings for Bobby to review, he would make a few suggestions, we would refine it to the final, put out the centerline stakes and go from there.  I would probably sketch out some bunkering, etc., for him to review.  Again, he would "edit" and then construction might start.  Not sure if he would be at every site visit I made, but probably a few more than normal (i.e., Colbert at Colbert Hills, his baby, and over a dozen vs. 1-2 for publicity purposes).


As to the routing itself, I have told this story, and don't even think its probably true, but I met a man at a Singapore golf show 30 years ago claiming to be a grand nephew or something.  According to him, family legend and a few letters show that Mac argued against using the farmhouse as clubhouse, thinking it forced too much an up and down routing.  Of course, I have no proof and he never produced the letters, for me at least.


I will say, I would probably have tried to produce one routing starting somewhere else, just to see how it might work out.   Had Jones been able to see the future, he would have known that a Berckman's Place tournament pavilion was going to be built eventually, and put the modest starting shack where it needed to be, golf wise, and then retire to the grander accommodations post round.


But, I have lost jobs pushing alternate clubhouse locations too strongly, so if I had been commissioned later in my career and wanted to stay on the job, I would probably declare, "Best clubhouse location ever!"   and work from there, LOL>

[Jim Sherma]

I've been mulling this more culturally than architecturally. Most likely Ross would have designed a very good course that would have had certain elements influenced by Bobby Jones' thoughts. Over the years the club would have altered the initial course to keep up with the pro game changing the specifics of the shaping while maintaining the essential elements that Ross and Jones laid out. This would have caused much beard pulling and discussion among a small self-identified cognoscenti as to whether or not the changes did some lasting artistic and metaphysical damage to the purity of the Ross/Jones original layout. However, the current course would generally be revered as a great stage for the pro game and Ross would be annually feted for his brilliance even though there is little that actually matches what was originally on the ground...

[Tom_Doak]

I would then bring back a few routings for Bobby to review, he would make a few suggestions, we would refine it to the final, put out the centerline stakes and go from there.  I would probably sketch out some bunkering, etc., for him to review.  Again, he would "edit" and then construction might start.  Not sure if he would be at every site visit I made, but probably a few more than normal (i.e., Colbert at Colbert Hills, his baby, and over a dozen vs. 1-2 for publicity purposes).

Well, you'd likely have lost the job to me if you had made THAT comparison out loud.

[BCrosby]

Dave -


It is likely that Jones first met MacKenzie a year earlier. They were both at the Walker Cup in St Andrews in 1926. I don't have a contemporaneous account of their meeting, but both were famous at the time. It is hard to imagine two such prominent figures didn't cross paths.


I have read several accounts that Ross was disappointed that he was not picked to design ANGC. I have, however, never read anything from the Jones side that Ross had been considered. Certainly Jones knew Ross' work well. In addition to the Ross courses in Augusta, Ross designed East Lake no. 2 course in 1928. (The story of the current no. 1 course is another matter.) Jones played one of the opening rounds at Athens CC in 1926. Jones spent his summers playing Ross' Highlands course (1926) in Highlands, N.C. (Again, Jones seems to have had no involvement in picking Ross or with the design of the course.) Ross courses were everywhere in the SE, where Jones played most of his casual golf. So it is not surprising that Jones knew Ross courses and liked his work. But then he also had nice things to say about courses by several other architects.


A final note. At one time I too thought that Ross must have been considered for the ANGC job. Ross would have been an obvious candidate, right? For example, it seemed likely that Ross and Jones became close during the time Ross spent in Atlanta working on East Lake no. 2 in 1927/28. But I found nothing in the ATL newspapers (by O.B. Keeler and others) to suggest that. To the contrary, I found a couple of accounts that Jones was not very familiar with the work on the no.2 course until he played it until several weeks after it opened. So the golden moment when Jones and Ross might have formed a relationship didn't seem to have happened. (Jones knew Ross from the time Jones was a teenager. It makes you wonder if there was something personal going on. Rank speculation on my part. But interesting I think.)   


(Per usual, the absence of evidence does no prove anything. But as you keep digging  and keep finding nothing, the absence of evidence starts to become strongly suggestive. If Ross and Jones had bonded, it is fair to think someone would have mentioned it.)   


Bottom line, as far as I can tell whatever expectations Ross might have had that he would be picked to design Jones' ideal golf course were Ross' own and were not shared by Jones.


Bob           

[Jeff_Brauer]

We can imagine Ross lost the job (if it was his to lose) when he uttered, "No, I think Dornoch is a better course...."

[Dave Maberry]

Dave -


It is likely that Jones first met MacKenzie a year earlier. They were both at the Walker Cup in St Andrews in 1926. I don't have a contemporaneous account of their meeting, but both were famous at the time. It is hard to imagine two such prominent figures didn't cross paths.


I have read several accounts that Ross was disappointed that he was not picked to design ANGC. I have, however, never read anything from the Jones side that Ross had been considered. Certainly Jones knew Ross' work well. In addition to the Ross courses in Augusta, Ross designed East Lake no. 2 course in 1928. (The story of the current no. 1 course is another matter.) Jones played one of the opening rounds at Athens CC in 1926. Jones spent his summers playing Ross' Highlands course (1926) in Highlands, N.C. (Again, Jones seems to have had no involvement in picking Ross or with the design of the course.) Ross courses were everywhere in the SE, where Jones played most of his casual golf. So it is not surprising that Jones knew Ross courses and liked his work. But then he also had nice things to say about courses by several other architects.


A final note. At one time I too thought that Ross must have been considered for the ANGC job. Ross would have been an obvious candidate, right? For example, it seemed likely that Ross and Jones became close during the time Ross spent in Atlanta working on East Lake no. 2 in 1927/28. But I found nothing in the ATL newspapers (by O.B. Keeler and others) to suggest that. To the contrary, I found a couple of accounts that Jones was not very familiar with the work on the no.2 course until he played it until several weeks after it opened. So the golden moment when Jones and Ross might have formed a relationship didn't seem to have happened. (Jones knew Ross from the time Jones was a teenager. It makes you wonder if there was something personal going on. Rank speculation on my part. But interesting I think.)   


(Per usual, the absence of evidence does no prove anything. But as you keep digging  and keep finding nothing, the absence of evidence starts to become strongly suggestive. If Ross and Jones had bonded, it is fair to think someone would have mentioned it.)   


Bottom line, as far as I can tell whatever expectations Ross might have had that he would be picked to design Jones' ideal golf course were Ross' own and were not shared by Jones.


Bob           

Bob,


Thanks for the information. I had read in a few books about Jones being familiar with Ross from Pinehurst and other courses in the Southeast. It made sense that Ross might be considered due to all his work there.


Dave

[Alex Bullock]

There is an interesting note in the history of the Sara Bay Country Club stating:  [/size]"In early 1925, Donald Ross was retained as the golf course architect.  Mr. Ross, Bobby Jones, Walter Hatcher (an associate of Ross) and E.H. Price (of Whitfield Estates) walked the property and chose the present site for the layout of the golf course."  If this is correct, Jones would have gained some insight into how Ross worked.  [/color]https://www.sarabaycc.org/Our_Club/History

[Sven Nilsen]

The actual date of when Bobby Jones met Mackenzie is kind of immaterial, although Bob is correct in surmising that they had met at least as early as the Walker Cup matches in 1926.


What is important is that Jones knew of Mackenzie and his growing reputation as an architect well before his trip to the Monterrey area in 1929.  He also knew that of the architects working in the United States in the late 1920's, Mackenzie was the one most familiar with the course he was looking to emulate, The Old Course. 


There is no evidence that Ross was ever considered for the Augusta National job.  Jones was just as familiar with Ross as he was with Mackenzie, and arguably more so as described earlier in the thread. 


If we're going to be throwing out conjecture about the personal relationship between Ross and Jones, perhaps the proper angle of analysis is to look at which architect was better suited for the job.  This includes an examination of the costs of hiring Mackenzie v. Ross.  Ross was undoubtedly the highest paid architect in the US at this point.  This being the start of the depression, the slightly cheaper Mackenzie might have appealed a bit more to the frugal nature of Clifford Roberts.  A simple comparison between the foundations of Seminole and Augusta National reveal one course to have started with a treasure trove of financial support while the other seemed a bit more unsure in its backing and projected success.  We often forget that the club in Georgia barely made it through its early years.


As for any personal animus between Jones and Ross, by all accounts there wasn't a person alive who had met Donald that had a bad thing to say about him.


Sven

[Paul Jones]

Would it be that different from the work he did next door at Augusta CC?

[Tom_Doak]

perhaps the proper angle of analysis is to look at which architect was better suited for the job.  This includes an examination of the costs of hiring Mackenzie v. Ross.  Ross was undoubtedly the highest paid architect in the US at this point.  This being the start of the depression, the slightly cheaper Mackenzie might have appealed a bit more to the frugal nature of Clifford Roberts.  A simple comparison between the foundations of Seminole and Augusta National reveal one course to have started with a treasure trove of financial support while the other seemed a bit more unsure in its backing and projected success.  We often forget that the club in Georgia barely made it through its early years.

Sven:


Do you have an idea of what the two were charging for their designs for comparison's sake?


I kind of doubt Bob Jones made his decision on the basis of who was the low bidder - especially since there is no evidence that Ross was asked for a proposal.


On the other hand, the terms were not very favorable to MacKenzie, who never got paid the last part of his fee.

[Tim Martin]

Would it be that different from the work he did next door at Augusta CC?

Paul-I agree as the topography is similar being just on the other side of the fence.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:


Pretty sure we can figure out how much Mac was paid from his estate claims.


To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting there ever was a bidding war.  But I do think Jones and Roberts were fully aware of the costs associated with hiring Ross and his team.


At that time, Ross was the highest earning architect in the country.  That being said, there were a number of projects like at Elmira in the late 30’s where he aignificantly discounted his fee.


Sven