What would Donald J. Ross, jr., have done with Berckmans Nursery property?

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't recall seeing a thread of this nature before, so here's a question. What might Donald J. Ross, jr., have done with the property that became Augusta National, had Bobby Jones selected him over MacKenzie?

[Jeff Schley]

To make it simple.... nothing better than MacKenzie.

[Mark_Fine]

Cut down more trees and surely not have planted any new ones but I agree with Jeff, nothing better than what Mackenzie did but something similar to what he was building at the time.

[Sven Nilsen]

Cut down more trees and surely not have planted any new ones

Curious as to where the thought that Ross wouldn't have planted new trees comes from.  He did exactly that at Oakland Hills.

[Sven Nilsen]

Donald's father's name was Murdoch.  Where does the "Jr." come from?

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
I think Ross’ opinion about trees is pretty universal.  Sure there will be some exceptions for someone who was involved with hundreds of courses but Ross was not a fan of trees especially those those impacted strategy.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
I think Ross’ opinion about trees is pretty universal.  Sure there will be some exceptions for someone who was involved with hundreds of courses but Ross was not a fan of trees especially those those impacted strategy.

It was a nursery.  Perhaps this one would have fallen into the exception category.

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
Yes I know.  It would not have been his favorite site I am guessing 😊

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
Yes I know.  It would not have been his favorite site I am guessing 😊

At least you didn't call him Junior.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Do we know he was interviewed for the project?  Think I have read somewhere that he was at least considered.


As to would he do better than Mac?  First, not everyone thinks ANGC is a classic of routing, mostly because of the forced requirement to use the old home as the clubhouse at the top of a pretty steep hill.  And, Ross was frugal, so he would be inclined to use it, too.  He also did plenty of routings that worked out of a clubhouse on the corner, so some routing elements would probably be the same.


When the site was developed, it didn't all that many trees (look at those old aerials) so I doubt that would have swayed him against the site.  He couldn't have anticipated them planting more over the years any better than anyone else.  And, if so, why would he have designed 5 courses at "Pinehurst" which was similarly wooded? 


What is most interesting speculation to me is, While Mac wrote about economy, etc., after 1930, did Ross work in that 1932 era reflect similar tastes and ideas?  I don't recall much and perused Brad Klein's book.  His clients were still mostly clubs in those days and perhaps he might have ended up putting in more bunkers, more in line with his work at Seminole, where he was admittedly trying to sort of catch up artistically with other gca's.


Anyway, no one can really answer of course, but a fun topic.

[Tom_Doak]

I have never thought to go theough Ross's work and sort it by soil types, but I doubt, as a practical Scotsman, that he would have built as many bunkers on the Georgia clay as he did at Seminole.


Which probably also had something to do with Mackenzie's choices . . . that, and having a client who didn't want a lot of unnecessary bunkering.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sandy soil and high water table at Seminole, clay soils, but with a drain tile, more than enough pitch to use pipes to drain bunkers away.  I haven't seen - but others are bigger experts on Ross - fewer bunkers on his NE courses than elsewhere, I don't think.  And, except for Seminole and a few others, Ross was pretty practical and frugal, never being particularly prone to splashing big bunkers all over the course.


But, its a good point. I was looking at his later courses to see if he had been influenced to reduce bunkering by the depression, like Mac was, not being site specific.  And, maybe Jones was more visionary than the typical country club board who may have even wanted to flaunt that they could still afford numerous sand bunkers.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


I wasn't worried about draining the bunkers on a clay site; I was worrying about the sand getting contaminated, and being expensive to replace.  At least, that's why I build way fewer bunkers when I'm not working on sand.

[Peter Pallotta]

An aside: I wonder if the question would've garnered more responses/greater detail with a different hypothetical architect, eg Colt or Fowler or CBM, or anachronistically, Jeff B or Tom D or Jack N.

[JMEvensky]

An aside: I wonder if the question would've garnered more responses/greater detail with a different hypothetical architect, eg Colt or Fowler or CBM, or anachronistically, Jeff B or Tom D or Jack N.

I think it would be more interesting to hear a current working architect say exactly what he would do differently--what Ross or any other ODG might have done is just speculation.


Jeff B. or Tom D. or any other architect-- if Bobby Jones had called you,what kind of golf course would ANGC be today?

[Ronald Montesano]

Worthless and less than simple. Try again.

To make it simple.... nothing better than MacKenzie.

[Ronald Montesano]

The bust outside of his bar in Pinehurst has a "Jr." on the plaque, I believe.

Donald's father's name was Murdoch.  Where does the "Jr." come from?

[Ronald Montesano]

Jeff, reading this piece (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/nostalgia/2401435/meet-the-trailblazing-scots-who-designed-the-cream-of-the-worlds-golf-courses/) compelled me to open this thread. It is stated in the piece that AM and DR were the only two considered candidates.

Do we know he was interviewed for the project?  Think I have read somewhere that he was at least considered.

[Ronald Montesano]

Peter, according to lore and history, only AM and DR were considered, so neither should be classified as hypothetical.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/nostalgia/2401435/meet-the-trailblazing-scots-who-designed-the-cream-of-the-worlds-golf-courses/

An aside: I wonder if the question would've garnered more responses/greater detail with a different hypothetical architect, eg Colt or Fowler or CBM, or anachronistically, Jeff B or Tom D or Jack N.

[Ronald Montesano]

JM...that can be your thread. This is mine. Ross was so jilted that he spent all his love on Pinehurst #2. It is (I thought) a well-known history that he was stunned that RTJjr did not select him. He was in the mix, as they say at the raves.

An aside: I wonder if the question would've garnered more responses/greater detail with a different hypothetical architect, eg Colt or Fowler or CBM, or anachronistically, Jeff B or Tom D or Jack N.

I think it would be more interesting to hear a current working architect say exactly what he would do differently--what Ross or any other ODG might have done is just speculation.


Jeff B. or Tom D. or any other architect-- if Bobby Jones had called you,what kind of golf course would ANGC be today?

[BCrosby]

What evidence is there that Ross was ever in the running for the design of ANGC? I have never seen any and I'm curious to know what I am missing.


Bob

[Tom_Doak]

What evidence is there that Ross was ever in the running for the design of ANGC? I have never seen any and I'm curious to know what I am missing.

I'm wondering the same thing.  I've been told multiple times in my career that I was 'considered' for a job, though the client never called me or asked for a proposal.  'Considered' is essentially meaningless.  'Interviewed' would be different and I don't think there is any evidence of that.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff B. or Tom D. or any other architect-- if Bobby Jones had called you,what kind of golf course would ANGC be today?

It's impossible to answer, honestly, knowing MacKenzie's routing so clearly.  It's a fine routing and I doubt anyone else would have done better.


Most would have tried not to have so many steep uphill shots, but I don't know if that's realistic given the nature of the site and the boundaries of the property.  There's some good, flatter property where the parking lots are today, but it wasn't available to use back then.

[Dave Maberry]

What evidence is there that Ross was ever in the running for the design of ANGC? I have never seen any and I'm curious to know what I am missing.


Bob

Bob,


The following is from Lee Pace's "Pinehurst Stories". The article is "Donald Ross" by Dick Taylor. It reads "The great Bob Jones had praised Ross's work at Augusta CC, according to Charles Price, and Ross thought he had an agreement with this legend that he would build Jones's dream course in his native Georgia. But when Jones played Cypress Point in California, he nominated its architect, Mackenzie, for the co-design that is now Augusta National GC." Jones had been in California for US Amateur, was eliminated early and subsequently played Cypress Point. The story goes that Ross concentrated on #2 the rest of his life to make it the finest course in the South.


Dave

[Tom_Doak]

Bob,


The following is from Lee Pace's "Pinehurst Stories". The article is "Donald Ross" by Dick Taylor. It reads "The great Bob Jones had praised Ross's work at Augusta CC, according to Charles Price, and Ross thought he had an agreement with this legend that he would build Jones's dream course in his native Georgia. But when Jones played Cypress Point in California, he nominated its architect, Mackenzie, for the co-design that is now Augusta National GC." Jones had been in California for US Amateur, was eliminated early and subsequently played Cypress Point. The story goes that Ross concentrated on #2 the rest of his life to make it the finest course in the South.

Charles Price likely didn't know that MacKenzie had walked The Old Course with O.B. Keeler during The Open in 1927, and met Jones there.  Maybe Donald Ross didn't know, either.