[Chris_Blakely]

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/the-club-at-lac-la-belle-on-track-for-autumn-reopening


Architect Craig Haltom talks about the routing at Lac La Belle.

[Chris_Blakely]

Purdue University just rebuilt Bill Diddel’s Ackerman Hills Course (originally Purdue South) and now called Ackerman Allen.


I have played both versions and the new Pete Dye course has changed the routing, incorporated new land and I believe only kept one old green.


Chris

[Mike_Trenham]

I am looking forward to see what DLIII has done with UVA's Birdwood Golf Course, its a complete redo with lots of fresh ground and holes where the direction of play has been reversed.

[Matthew Rose]

The new City Park in Denver.

[Pat Burke]

Didn’t Eugene CC basically reverse itself??


Or is that a myth

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, What changes did you make to holes 14-16 at ACCC?

The 14th and 15th are completely new holes and those were my biggest change to the plan.  We actually created the salt marah they play around, and used the excavated material to build up the other fairways along the marsh, which used to flood every spring.


Previously, there were three long holes in a row playing north along the marsh, and one of the client's requests was to break up that stretch somehow.  Turning 14 inland allowed us to add a par-3 playing back the other way, into the prevailing wind.  We turned the old 10-11-12 into two holes to make up for adding 15.

[A.G._Crockett]

UNC Finley is a poster child for this.  The original layout was a George Cobb design; UNC hired Tom Fazio in the late '90's, and he built a completely new golf course on the same site.  There are only a handful of places on the course where you can even tell where you would have been on the old course; one green site, and a couple of fairways, although they play in the opposite direction now.

Another one that comes to mind is in Savannah, GA; it was a Bob Cupp design called The Woodyard.  It was less than ten years old when Greg Norman blew it up and built a new course on the site called Savannah Quarters.  I thought The Woodyard was very, very good, including one of the best sets of par 5's I had ever seen.  As for Savannah Quarters?  Of all the courses I've ever played, it's one of them.  I'll leave it at that.

[Tim Martin]

Anyone know if and how the original nine holes built by the family that owns the property is integrated into the Coore & Crenshaw routing at East Hampton GC? I thought I had read somewhere the finished project was an 18 course expanded from 9.

[Ben Stephens]

Greys Green nr Henley the course was redone by inert fill with the existing corridors used - Doc has played it recently

[Ally Mcintosh]

Back to the original question, I think it is slightly harder to route a new course over land where there is an existing one... There are different levels for sure.


St.Patricks is “easy” because the previous courses were just mown out so Tom really had a blank canvas - he didn’t have to consider previously created shaping or vegetation corridors.


One example I have routed was a theoretical exercise based on a real project... Ross McMurray of EGD had to build the Celtic Manor Montgomery course over land occupied by the 7/8 holes of the previous Wentworth Hills course and the 18 holes of the small executive course (can’t recall name)... I was given the same exercise when I spent a week in the EGD offices.... Certainly the previous layouts had to be considered when routing the new course in order to 1. Reduce work and 2. Give a more mature feel to the new course.


Really interesting project that one.

[Ben Stephens]

Back to the original question, I think it is slightly harder to route a new course over land where there is an existing one... There are different levels for sure.


St.Patricks is “easy” because the previous courses were just mown out so Tom really had a blank canvas - he didn’t have to consider previously created shaping or vegetation corridors.


One example I have routed was a theoretical exercise based on a real project... Ross McMurray of EGD had to build the Celtic Manor Montgomery course over land occupied by the 7/8 holes of the previous Wentworth Hills course and the 18 holes of the small executive course (can’t recall name)... I was given the same exercise when I spent a week in the EGD offices.... Certainly the previous layouts had to be considered when routing the new course in order to 1. Reduce work and 2. Give a more mature feel to the new course.


Really interesting project that one.

Hi Ally

Wentworth Hills?? it was actually Wentwood Hills and the shorter course was called Coldra Woods. My cousin knew the construction site manager for RTJ II and I have a RTJ II signed Golf by Design book thanks to the gentleman.

I for one wouldn't waste time playing the Montgomerie course (i have played it a few times) as I think it was an missed opportunity.

To eliminate the best hole on the old Wentwood Hills - the 15th (Montgomerie 5th and 6th) and break it up into 2 shorter holes was a travesty and one of the best holes on Coldra Woods was eliminated in the process as I remember that you and EGD tried to fit it in the new layout. The location of the tee on the 6th doesn't work with the new direction due to the way the green is lined up it feels like a short cut was taken rather than adapt the front of the green to work with the tee.

The first on the Montgomerie has been shortened by 120-150 yards and I drove pin high once.

Having played the 2010 and Wentwood Hills - I actually prefer the former Wentwood Hills as a golf course the 3rd hole was a great driving hole downhill which was re-jigged to create the 16th on the 2020. They are both very long walks and Wentwood Hills was a harder walk.

The Montgomerie combined a few Coldra Woods holes and the ones that stand out are 10 and 16 the others are pretty much standard.

The Roman Road is being slightly botched up as well (16 and 17 recently - 15 used to be a monster par 5 and shortened all of these is because of the hotel's surrounding area surely they could use some of the Montgomerie course holes to beef it back up to championship standard.

Cheers
Ben

[Ally Mcintosh]

Back to the original question, I think it is slightly harder to route a new course over land where there is an existing one... There are different levels for sure.


St.Patricks is “easy” because the previous courses were just mown out so Tom really had a blank canvas - he didn’t have to consider previously created shaping or vegetation corridors.


One example I have routed was a theoretical exercise based on a real project... Ross McMurray of EGD had to build the Celtic Manor Montgomery course over land occupied by the 7/8 holes of the previous Wentworth Hills course and the 18 holes of the small executive course (can’t recall name)... I was given the same exercise when I spent a week in the EGD offices.... Certainly the previous layouts had to be considered when routing the new course in order to 1. Reduce work and 2. Give a more mature feel to the new course.


Really interesting project that one.

Hi Ally

Wentworth Hills?? it was actually Wentwood Hills and the shorter course was called Coldra Woods. My cousin knew the construction site manager for RTJ II and I have a RTJ II signed Golf by Design book thanks to the gentleman.

I for one wouldn't waste time playing the Montgomerie course (i have played it a few times) as I think it was an missed opportunity.

To eliminate the best hole on the old Wentwood Hills - the 15th (Montgomerie 5th and 6th) and break it up into 2 shorter holes was a travesty and one of the best holes on Coldra Woods was eliminated in the process as I remember that you and EGD tried to fit it in the new layout. The location of the tee on the 6th doesn't work with the new direction due to the way the green is lined up it feels like a short cut was taken rather than adapt the front of the green to work with the tee.

The first on the Montgomerie has been shortened by 120-150 yards and I drove pin high once.

Having played the 2010 and Wentwood Hills - I actually prefer the former Wentwood Hills as a golf course the 3rd hole was a great driving hole downhill which was re-jigged to create the 16th on the 2020. They are both very long walks and Wentwood Hills was a harder walk.

The Montgomerie combined a few Coldra Woods holes and the ones that stand out are 10 and 16 the others are pretty much standard.

The Roman Road is being slightly botched up as well (16 and 17 recently - 15 used to be a monster par 5 and shortened all of these is because of the hotel's surrounding area surely they could use some of the Montgomerie course holes to beef it back up to championship standard.

Cheers
Ben

Remember this was a theoretical exercise for me so I’m not sure how you saw my routing?


I do remember I wasn’t a million miles away from the one that was actually built though.

[Ben Stephens]

Back to the original question, I think it is slightly harder to route a new course over land where there is an existing one... There are different levels for sure.


St.Patricks is “easy” because the previous courses were just mown out so Tom really had a blank canvas - he didn’t have to consider previously created shaping or vegetation corridors.


One example I have routed was a theoretical exercise based on a real project... Ross McMurray of EGD had to build the Celtic Manor Montgomery course over land occupied by the 7/8 holes of the previous Wentworth Hills course and the 18 holes of the small executive course (can’t recall name)... I was given the same exercise when I spent a week in the EGD offices.... Certainly the previous layouts had to be considered when routing the new course in order to 1. Reduce work and 2. Give a more mature feel to the new course.


Really interesting project that one.

Hi Ally

Wentworth Hills?? it was actually Wentwood Hills and the shorter course was called Coldra Woods. My cousin knew the construction site manager for RTJ II and I have a RTJ II signed Golf by Design book thanks to the gentleman.

I for one wouldn't waste time playing the Montgomerie course (i have played it a few times) as I think it was an missed opportunity.

To eliminate the best hole on the old Wentwood Hills - the 15th (Montgomerie 5th and 6th) and break it up into 2 shorter holes was a travesty and one of the best holes on Coldra Woods was eliminated in the process as I remember that you and EGD tried to fit it in the new layout. The location of the tee on the 6th doesn't work with the new direction due to the way the green is lined up it feels like a short cut was taken rather than adapt the front of the green to work with the tee.

The first on the Montgomerie has been shortened by 120-150 yards and I drove pin high once.

Having played the 2010 and Wentwood Hills - I actually prefer the former Wentwood Hills as a golf course the 3rd hole was a great driving hole downhill which was re-jigged to create the 16th on the 2020. They are both very long walks and Wentwood Hills was a harder walk.

The Montgomerie combined a few Coldra Woods holes and the ones that stand out are 10 and 16 the others are pretty much standard.

The Roman Road is being slightly botched up as well (16 and 17 recently - 15 used to be a monster par 5 and shortened all of these is because of the hotel's surrounding area surely they could use some of the Montgomerie course holes to beef it back up to championship standard.

Cheers
Ben

Remember this was a theoretical exercise for me so I’m not sure how you saw my routing?


I do remember I wasn’t a million miles away from the one that was actually built though.

You did mention it in another thread a while ago and there was no diagrams of your routing  . Theoretical layouts are a good point of discussion between GCAers

[Ben Stephens]

The Vineyard originally done by Donald Steel (now M+E) has been completely redone by Gil Hanse

[Jay Mickle]

I did not care for the RTJ/Reese/Fazio #4 at Pinehurst and had only played it once 10+ years ago so my recollections are not good. Gil did reshape a great amount of the course to make fit with the original land forms and not seem contrived as the previous iterations. The course is visually much more appealing.  I would say that it is basically a new course with an entire new and superior presence but without the level of creativity that would have been possible with a more open, untouched piece of ground where he would not have been constrained by many of the existing tree lined corridors.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I did not care for the RTJ/Reese/Fazio #4 at Pinehurst and had only played it once 10+ years ago so my recollections are not good. Gil did reshape a great amount of the course to make fit with the original land forms and not seem contrived as the previous iterations. The course is visually much more appealing.  I would say that it is basically a new course with an entire new and superior presence but without the level of creativity that would have been possible with a more open, untouched piece of ground where he would not have been constrained by many of the existing tree lined corridors.

I have played #4 in a bunch of different iterations over the last 45 years. Gil's version is the best by far. I don't think he changed the routing much but he sure made the best of the terrain, Which is terrific and the best on the property.

[Mark Kiely]

Indian Wells Golf Resort did this with its Ted Robinson-designed East and West courses. Clive Clark created the Celebrity course over the West's footprint while John Fought built the Players course where East used to be. I'd never played West but I did recognize at least a few hole routings on Players that seem to be holdovers from East.


Another one not far from there was Canyon South CC in Palm Springs, which is now Indian Canyons South. I believe they kept some original routing and created new in spots as well.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think he changed the routing much but he sure made the best of the terrain, Which is terrific and the best on the property.

I don't understand how one makes the best of the terrain without changing the routing.  Can you give an example?

[Tom_Doak]

St.Patricks is “easy” because the previous courses were just mown out so Tom really had a blank canvas - he didn’t have to consider previously created shaping or vegetation corridors.

It didn't affect our routing, but we found quite a few places where we had to deconstruct some crude equipment work from the previous course.  Even more so at The National, where the previous Ocean course was also purported to have just been mown out.  I'm starting to think some architects might stretch the truth about how little work they've done to a site. 

[Tom_Doak]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is how many great courses today are the result of redesigns from 90+ years ago:


Muirfield
Lahinch
Royal Portrush
Royal Melbourne
Royal Adelaide
San Francisco GC
Merion


Even Pebble Beach was substantially improved a few years after it opened:  the 8th and 18th greens were not part of the original course!

[Ally Mcintosh]

St.Patricks is “easy” because the previous courses were just mown out so Tom really had a blank canvas - he didn’t have to consider previously created shaping or vegetation corridors.

It didn't affect our routing, but we found quite a few places where we had to deconstruct some crude equipment work from the previous course.  Even more so at The National, where the previous Ocean course was also purported to have just been mown out.  I'm starting to think some architects might stretch the truth about how little work they've done to a site. 

That actually doesn’t surprise me for St.Patricks. Whilst Hackett’s work generally had very little fairway shaping, the construction work that was undertaken (usually all tees and greens) is more often than not blatantly obvious and simple.... Almost always because it was built by locals but the detail clearly didn’t seem that important to Hackett either.

[MCirba]

Related question:   How do folks who count the number of courses they've played treat having played an original course on a site and then some time later play a "new course" built on the same property?   I have to admit that I'm not consistent in that regard.

For instance, today in Lafayette Hills outside of Philadelphia, PA there is a club called the "ACE Club" which was designed over land that was formerly two courses in prior years.   In 1926, Herb Jewson designed a course there for "Roxborough Country Club", and years later (1982) Rees Jones built a course called "Eagle Lodge" on the same property.   I played Eagle Lodge, and I've also played the ACE club, so I list them as two separate courses as the entire property was plowed over and re-shaped to create the new course.  Similarly, in Montgomeryville, PA a few local pros designed an built a public course called Montgomeryville Golf Course in 1962 and years later someone bought the property, created a new routing with a real estate component and Ron Prichard designed a new course called Pinecrest.   Having played them both I count them as two, as well, with the former listed as NLE.   In the latter case, 2 or 3 holes maintain a similar routing, yet were completely rebuilt.

I'm comfortable with that, by and large, yet when I play a course for the first time I'll go back and perhaps out of an homage or at least an interest in history I'll credit any architect who worked on the property in prior years, even if that work is now obliterated.   For instance, when I play Pinehurst #4 my listing would include, Ross, Jones, Fazio, et.al. even if what is there today is mostly a Hanse re-do.   I think I'm comfortable with that approach, as well, but am interested to hear what others do.

I have to admit that it helps justify things in my mind when the course name changes, and the new work is done in conjunction with that change and if I've played both it makes more sense to list them as two courses.   In the case of Pinehurst #4 conversely, if I have played it back when Fazio did it I couldn't see it as a "new course" when Gil re-did it, and I'd simply add the latter to the list of architects who worked the property on a single golf course, particularly if large elements of the routing and/or greensites were intact.
 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't think he changed the routing much but he sure made the best of the terrain, Which is terrific and the best on the property.

I don't understand how one makes the best of the terrain without changing the routing.  Can you give an example?

It is my understanding that Gil changed some of the way the greens were situated on the site. Some allow more shots to be bounced up and others sit on a shelf more than in previous iterations. According to my caddie there were some holes where the fairways were moved left or right to take advantage of the terrain better.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm much drawn to the concept of 'freedom' -- an idea that's easy to value and praise, a practical experience that is hard to live out day by day. The freedom that GCAs need to have to meaningfully escape the constraints of an existing course; the freedom that golfers need to have to actually play a course in any way/exactly the way they please. In both cases, it seems to me, much easier said than done.

[Kirk Gill]

Another good example of building a course over an existing layout is CommonGround near Denver, which was built over the existing (and forgettable) Mira Vista golf course. I have some vague memory that Tom Doak and team routed a number of holes in the areas that had been between the old existing holes, which I thought was an interesting idea.

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