[Thomas Dai]

On another current thread I mentioned the subject of a composite course at St Andrews starting and finishing on TOC but also comprising holes from TOC, New, Eden & Jubilee - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65129.0.html

Matthew kindly responded with a possible version so I thought the subject deserved a thread in its own right.

Below is Matthews response.

Other possible routing from others very welcome.

atb

Edit - see reply 5 below for Matthews revised routing.

[Sean_A]

I like the 10th!  Its the only thing which makes the 9th tolerable    Also, losing TOC 14 is harsh. 


Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Great ideas ATB and Matthew, but no chance the R&A/Links Trust will do anything so forward looking and brilliant.  At least not in my lifetime.....

[Thomas Dai]

Found this thread from 2006 - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24661.msg456465.html#msg456465


And from GoogleEarth - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.3545738,-2.8176179,3006m/data=!3m1!1e3


Only 72 possible holes to consider!


I reckon such a composite would have to start on the 1st at TOC. Hands and knees shaking time!


atb

[jeffwarne]

I just threw up in my mouth a bit....


but as long as they can can get more $$$ and more length to accommodate upcoming "significantly insignificant" distance gains,
so be it.


Nice creative thinking exercise though.


Now if we can figure a way to reroute/enlarge Fenway all my dreams could come true

[Matthew Essig]

It was a fun thought exercise!


The routings in the old thread that ATB found, while smooth, have a severe lack in par 3s and other factors. The routing I came up with, while a little disjointed and three slightly concerning walks and one rather long walk between green and tee would be necessary, could be a legitimate and interesting test and routing.


Leaving 14 on OC out was a tough choice, but made with two things in mind.
1) For the pros, 14 doesn't play like it should anymore.
2) I knew I wanted to get the Eden hole; 2, 3, and 8 on Eden; and 15 and 16 on Jubilee into the routing. Fitting 14 in would have made things complicated.


One thing I made sure to do... the OC has NO physical changes. Leave her be for the rest of us to enjoy.

Only "connector" hole is 11 on my routing. You might say 5 and 10 are, too, but I think they could be fascinating holes.

ATB, I'm going to repost mine below with a couple modifications after more research. If you want to, you can remove it from the OP to take up less space on the page.


They will no longer tee off from 1 on OC. The first hole is a snoozer. Also, I see the R&A now able to line the left side of 18 with grandstands ($$$).
Hole 1: Par 4. 483 yards. 2 on OC from a tee on 1st fairway on other side of the burn. Gives them chance to surround "1st tee" with grandstands ($$$).
Hole 2: Par 5. 640 yards. 4 on OC played from a tee placed where 1 on NC pinches. Drive up 2 on NC, then they can play up either fairway for lay-up. If there is a gale back into the players faces, using the tees on 2 at NC would still have the hole play about 560 yards.
Hole 3: Par 4. 470 yards. A little bit of a walk from the last hole, but worth it. 2 on Eden from new tee left of barn
Hole 4: Par 4. 450 yards. 3 on Eden. Use tee green-high right
Hole 5: Par 3. 220 yards. 4 on Eden. In this routing, there would be no long par 3 without doing a bit of a reduction. I think this hole would be a perfect opportunity for it. Part of it is to move the tee a bit further away from the previous green. Another is playing this as a 280 yard par 4 would not be interesting in the slightest.
Hole 6: Par 3. 178 yards. 8 on Eden. What a crazy cool hole. It had to be included. Only worry would be the gallery traffic around this hole, but I think it can be done.
Hole 7: Par 4. 455 yards. 13 on OC. There is a crossover in front of the 4th tee (3 on Eden), but it would be manageable, and the walk back to the tee wouldn't be that far. The current Open tee would not be able to be used to give room for hole 4 (3 on Eden); however, the hole would still play as intended. It would require an accurate lay up, and with the entire green now open to be used, Saturday it could be 415-420 yards over the grass bunker in front, and Sunday be 480-490 yards to a hole location on the far/back side of the green.
Hole 8: Par 4. 440 yards. 6 on OC, but now the hole will be located on the far side of the green (#12 normally). The green over there makes the approach far more demanding.
Hole 9. Par 3. 174 yards. A little bit of a walk, but again, worth it. 11 on OC. The Eden hole. Nothing more needs to be said.
Hole 10. Par 5. About 555 yards. A little bit of a walk, again, but nothing too outrageous. Reachable par 5 using 12 on NC from 9 on NC tees. It would make for an interesting slightly-angled right fairway off the tee and the bunkers on 8 at NC could be in play with a block.
Hole 11. Par 3. 162 yards. 13 on NC. Might be one of the weakest holes in the routing, but it will be the shortest par 3 in the routing, and all the par 3s face different directions. A new tee would have to be constructed back and to the right in the area of the gorse to give the previous green some playing space/spectator room.
Hole 12. Par 4. 460 yards. 14 on Jubilee with a new tee a little further back. Lots of places the tee could be placed and not really affect any of the holes currently there. Since the green isn't being shared during the tournament, there would be three very unique lobes that the hole could be cut in.
Hole 13. Par 4. 390 yards. 15 on Jubilee. New back tee located on the front left corner of 5 on Jubilee, or new tee constructed. Very strategic hole. Great amphitheater setting, too, if I remember correctly.
Hole 14. Par 4. 450 yards. 16 on Jubilee. A new tee would need to be constructed, though this new tee might not be possible. If not, even at 430 yards, this would be another interesting hole. Great angled drive over the dune. If the rough was grown up a little on both sides of the fairway, can make the hole play tough. Another great amphitheater.
Hole 15. Par 4. 455 yards. 15 on OC. This is the biggest hiccup in the routing. Quite a bit of a walk between 14 green to 15 tee. One positive: no other hole crossings in this routing. Negative: Crossing the width of 4 fairways. This is the last twist though. Smooth sailing back into town.
Hole 16. Par 4. 423 yards. 16 on OC.
Hole 17. Par 4. 495 yards. 17 on OC.
Hole 18. Par 4. 357 yards. 18 on OC. Like I said at the beginning, grandstand runs down the whole left side now. Mass amounts of spectators can finally see the last hole at an Open at St. Andrews.
In total... 7247 yards, Par 70. Actually 60 yards shorter than the Open tees at the Old Course currently, but reduction in par makes it play tougher than the yardage says and some vastly more interesting holes than say 3, 9, and 10 on the OC.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting Matthew. Your posting modification mentioned above has been made.


I reckon there are a few posting herein who must have a high level of knowledge of all four courses so more proposals welcome. I reckon it’s probably not as easy an exercise as it seems.


Amateur Architect Contest TOC!?


Atb

[Simon Holt]

Composites that could actually work for an Open but only add a few holes from the New. 

Drop 8,9,10 on Old.  Play 9 and 10 on the New , then a new par 3 from current 13th green/14th tee on the New to 10th green on the Old.


Gives you 3 par 3s in a 4 hole stretch.  9 and 10 on the New are the best holes on that course, then the new par 3 gives the ubiquitous long par 3, albeit an unashamed connector hole.

For that new par 3, clear some gorse between current 9 on the Old and 8 on the New and you might not even need to add bunkers since there are a few off the current 9 tee on Old and back of 8th green/front of 10th green on Old.

OR

Drop 1 and start on 2.  Added bonus of a short walk from the range.

Drop 8 and 9 on Old for 9 and 10 on New.

Then play par 4 from the ladies 13th tee on New to the 11th green on the New; probably clear some gorse out to give a better look. 

Then a longish par 3 from current 12th tee on the New to 10th green on the Old.  Again, maybe clear out some gorse around 12th tee on New.

Continue Old as is from 11th tee.

Not as adventurous as wandering onto the Eden and Jube but both could work.

[Thomas Dai]

Be nice for the composite holes to reach right out to near where the River Eden joins the sea, say the 9th on the New or the 8th on the Jubilee.
Atb

[Alex Miller]

How I approached this:

I love players starting and finishing in front of the R&A Clubhouse - must do that.

There are many wedge approaches at TOC - if we can increase the variety of approaches and increase the length of some that is a desired result.

Preserve interesting holes/greens where possible - to me this meant actively looking for improvements over holes 8 & 9 and considerations for 6 & 7.

If possible, add seaside holes to enhance both the playing and television experience.

Keep it a sensible walk so it feels like a real course.


So...


Holes 1-5: TOC 1-5, as is with the option to lengthen the 3rd by 20 yards (390 to 410).


Hole 6: TOC 6 tee to New Course 4 green. I really like that green on New, and this par 3 could play from 180-220 to a slightly front to back sloping green defended by 3 pot bunkers front left. Seems like an appropriate challenge for the pros and a strong frankenstein par 3.
Hole 7: TOC 10, A little walk across New 6 fairway to the existing hole. Option for another back tee and to play to hole locations on the 8th green.

Hole 8: TOC 11, because it must be included

Hole 9: TOC 12, Not a snoozer like #9 with a very cool green and unique fairway approach, and we can use the whole green since TOC 6 will not be used (some cool potential locations around the corner there)

Hole 10: New tee in the walking path for #7 or from TOC 11 tee creating a 460 yard par 4 playing to TOC 13 green. Players were already going left off the tee on 13 anyway, now it's likely the favored route, but rough can be grown to make the decision more difficult and a dogleg left is a nice break to the rest of TOC. The new angle off the tee should not effect the playing characteristics of a wonderful challenging approach.

Hole 11: Matthew's 3 on Eden using the tee of TOC 14 making it 460 yards. Because we're no longer using the existing 13th tee that area will be rough rather than internal OB and keep consistency in how we define our boundaries around this new course.

Hole 12: Eden 4 at 220 yards, a great, photogenic, challenging par 3.

Hole 13: Eden 8, not so bad either  

Hole 14: TOC 14 but played off of the tee of Eden 3 making it 645 yards and actually a true "Long" hole for today's pros. The Beardies are now very much in play and the tee shot that much more challenged by O.B. Hell is now an important obstacle on the 2nd shot as well.


Holes 15 - 18: TOC, no need to mess with the finishing stretch.

This new course is par 35-35 and 7,210 yards... 100 yards shorter than the current Open set up, but we've dropped two full shots and substituted 4 of the easer green complexes/holes for some more challenging approaches. We've also improved the variety in par, type of approach, and eliminated the crossover (though I love the charm of it), all while creating a newly defined boundary that contains all 18 holes with limited wasted space.

[Clyde Johnson]

Sorry to be a spoil sport David, but there is not a single hole (maybe 15, but it is a grower, and quietly clever) on the Old's back nine that I would want to skip, which really limits my composite options. Not really any on the front nine either, assuming the hole locations were tucked in their most interesting places.


But, if you were wanting to make a tough-er composite, you'd try and include:
 - Any of the first two or last par-three's on the New course. The mid-four 6th and 10th are both strategically sound, and tricky with the wind hurting and across. The 15th portion of the sole double green, raised, on the angle and protected by a shoulder on the inside is one of the most confounding approaches on the whole links.
 - The fifth on the Jube, played as a par-four (for the pros) - cross-wind with broken ground left and gorse tight right. Fifteen in, is a brutal finish for the amateurs.
- The Eden's fourth played as a par-three, and the treacherous one-shot eighth would surely get things moving like a rabbit's nose.


For interest:
- The fourth on the New, and the seventh green (a straightaway four that can easily sleepwalk you into a bogey.)
- Any of the Colt green complexes on the Eden.

[Alex Miller]

Sorry to be a spoil sport David, but there is not a single hole (maybe 15, but it is a grower, and quietly clever) on the Old's back nine that I would want to skip, which really limits my composite options. Not really any on the front nine either, assuming the hole locations were tucked in their most interesting places.


But, if you were wanting to make a tough-er composite, you'd try and include:
 - Any of the first two or last par-three's on the New course. The mid-four 6th and 10th are both strategically sound, and tricky with the wind hurting and across. The 15th portion of the sole double green, raised, on the angle and protected by a shoulder on the inside is one of the most confounding approaches on the whole links.
 - The fifth on the Jube, played as a par-four (for the pros) - cross-wind with broken ground left and gorse tight right. Fifteen in, is a brutal finish for the amateurs.
- The Eden's fourth played as a par-three, and the treacherous one-shot eighth would surely get things moving like a rabbit's nose.


For interest:
- The fourth on the New, and the seventh green (a straightaway four that can easily sleepwalk you into a bogey.)
- Any of the Colt green complexes on the Eden.

Given the other thread about saving TOC, I thought I'd resurface this one to continue the discussion of a Super Championship Course.


Thinking further about it I've retained a couple thoughts from my post above:

• There are many wedge approaches at TOC - if we can increase the variety of approaches and increase the length of some that is a desired result.
• Preserve interesting holes/greens where possible - to me this meant actively looking for improvements over holes 8 & 9 and considerations for 6 & 7.
• If possible, add seaside holes to enhance both the playing and television experience.
• Keep it a sensible walk so it feels like a real course.

I think utilizing the New Course makes the most sense, and Clyde's post provides some helpful guidance in how to make it work. I would propose the following:

• TOC
• TOC
• TOC
• TOC
• TOC
• NEW #7, w/ new alternate back tee built on the other side of 6 green to create a 420yd dogleg left par 4.
• NEW #8, played as a 500 yd par 4. One of the more memorable green sites and approach shots on the property.
• NEW #9, 225 yd par 3. The sea comes back into play at The Open! No doubt a hole which can test the pros.
• NEW #12, played from up tees to create a ~500 yd par 4. While I think #10 on New is a better hole, this completes our excursion onto New so that we may rejoin TOC for the inward holes.
• TOC, but improved! The option to pin on the right side of the green is opened up thanks to our new holes bypassing #8 old.
• TOC, no need to pin on #7 old.
• TOC, with option to pin further left than previously possible.
• TOC
• TOC
• TOC
• TOC
• TOC
• TOC

Our new card is 36+36=72 with all holes playing to the same par as would be played on TOC. This course however adds 330(!) yards over the 4 new holes. Our Super Championship course has yardage of 3,915+3,710=7,625.

[Ken Moum]

Alex, having only played TOC four times over 11 years, and New only twice, I can't get an image in my head of how those holes on New would play, but I think the idea of opening up new hole locations on some of the double greens is delicious.

[Alex Miller]

Alex, having only played TOC four times over 11 years, and New only twice, I can't get an image in my head of how those holes on New would play, but I think the idea of opening up new hole locations on some of the double greens is delicious.

I would trust a local to know more about what options could be used (and to tell me problems with this idea), but here's what the routing looks like from above. I think there are potentially better spectator opportunities than present as well.

[Garland Bayley]

...

• NEW #12, played from up tees to create a ~500 yd par 4. While I think #10 on New is a better hole, this completes our excursion onto New so that we may rejoin TOC for the inward holes.

...

Agree #10 is better. You make a long walk 9 green to New 12 tee. It appears to be about the same as using #10 and walking 10 green to 12 green. So go ahead and use #10.

[Adrian_Stiff]

They could still add 350 yards to the existing course just by putting the tees further back....it might be impossible for normal mortals but we are dealing with a situation where, the routing needs to be preserved and the powers won't roll the back back.


Extended tees at 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-13-14-18 are still possible.


8 could go back on the high ground to 220, 10 could go a fair bit more back to 440, 13 to 500 in the alignment of the old members tees with the tee on the bank of the Eden...the rest a modest 20 yards.


What makes TOC easy to score is 4 driveable par 4 holes, and the overall length is a 'twisted' 7250 yards because there are only 2 short holes, if it had the 'traditional' 4, it might be under 7000... A 200 yard par 3 and 600 yard par 5 equals 800 yards... a pair of 450 par 4s equates to 900 yards.

[Alex Miller]

...

• NEW #12, played from up tees to create a ~500 yd par 4. While I think #10 on New is a better hole, this completes our excursion onto New so that we may rejoin TOC for the inward holes.

...

Agree #10 is better. You make a long walk 9 green to New 12 tee. It appears to be about the same as using #10 and walking 10 green to 12 green. So go ahead and use #10.

The walk is about twice as long, but you make a good point and the quality of New 10 vs New 12 probably makes it worth it. Would love to have utilized New 13 but I felt New 8 and New 9 outweighed New 11 and New 13.




Adrian - why does the routing need to be preserved for one week every 5 years that they play The Open there? They can still play The Dunhill on TOC and have every visitor play this routing. This augmentation is not one that would permanently affect the architecture on the ground in any way.


Also up for debate is the quality of the holes themselves. Perhaps I'll get labeled a blasphemer but I'm not so sure which 4 holes are better between TOC 6-9 vs New 7-10. One certainly helps balance the shots called for by top tier professionals over the course of 18 holes...

[Garland Bayley]

...

• NEW #12, played from up tees to create a ~500 yd par 4. While I think #10 on New is a better hole, this completes our excursion onto New so that we may rejoin TOC for the inward holes.

...

Agree #10 is better. You make a long walk 9 green to New 12 tee. It appears to be about the same as using #10 and walking 10 green to 12 green. So go ahead and use #10.

The walk is about twice as long, but you make a good point and the quality of New 10 vs New 12 probably makes it worth it. Would love to have utilized New 13 but I felt New 8 and New 9 outweighed New 11 and New 13.

...

What we are talking about here is the non-golfing walking to get from 9 green to 12 green.

If you walk straight lines, the differences is 175 yards vs. 210. However, to walk straight from New 9 green to New 12 tee you must clear a bunch of gorse, and have to walk up and down some severe terrain (knowledge learned by hitting wild shots) when leaving 9 to get to path through the gorse. Making a path 10 green to 12 green would be far simpler.

To avoid the problems with the straight path, if you walk back New #9, before turning left to get to 12 tee, you walk 195 yards. To walk existing cleared land between 10 green and 12 green, you walk 260 yards. The other option walking 9 green to 12 tee around the gorse on better land is 360 yards as you would also have to detour around walking across 11 green.

So you see in all practicallity, using 10 over 12 is the better option. 

[Alex Miller]

Garland I was thinking traversing back down half the length of 9 was the better option, but agree now that 10 would be better for a  reasons mentioned.


As walker/carrier I would always prefer this option as it's easy to drop my bag off close to the next tee. My home course is compactly routed but the only times there are significant walks to the next tee (think >15 seconds) is when it is a walkback and I can drop off my bag. It's a wonderful routing!


Of course, for pros and their caddies this is less of a concern, though I have tried to be sympathetic to the caddie in proposing this.

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