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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration/Renovation and Rankings
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 01:51:44 PM »
I think this question is best addressed in reverse.


Take a 9 or 10. Then imagine how bad it could be if you "de-novated" it. Make every hole a 30 yard wide fairway, pinching bunkers left and right (round craters with built-up lips, of course), and a round, flattish green with bunkers again left and right. Fair to poor condition. Add a few weird mounds and a couple of unpopular features—an out of place pond, some badly placed trees etc. Even Augusta would become a 3, wouldn't it? Winged Foot too?


So what's to prevent a course from going in the other direction as long as the property is big enough and the money is there?



MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration/Renovation and Rankings
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 02:03:57 PM »

Mike - I understand what you're saying and I defer to your opinion, but then doesn't it mean that raters (official or unofficial) are focusing on and rating their playing experience on a given day much more so than the design itself? You might answer 'Yes, that's exactly what they're doing, and that's the way it should be -- you can't divorce the architecture (as originally intended) from the golf course (as you find it)'. And if you said that I'd probably reluctantly agree with you. But then why should anyone be surprised if an un-restored/un-renovated little gem of a classic course, subjected to years of tree planting and green shrinkage and narrowed fairways etc, is for years and years rated quite low? And maybe (?) the only exceptions to this are those golf courses with such exceptional architectural pedigree and storied histories that raters already know about the greatness of the designs and thus are able to 'see' and focus on and rate that greatness even in its un-restored state -- and despite their actual playing experience.
Peter,

Good question.   I would disagree with the assumption that a good rater's opinion is based on their "playing experience on a given day", as relates to resto/reno activities.

I don't think it matters how someone is playing, for instance, to note that a tight row of soft white pines that previously required either a lost ball or a "chip" out has been removed and now offers a chance of recovery by shaping a shot under, over, or around a specimen tree.    I don't think it matters how someone is playing to note that green space has been recovered allowing for an interesting hole location that was previously rough grass requiring a gouged recovery attempt.   Similarly, allowing original widths of fairways where one can effectively shape the ball into sideslopes and watch the ball run out instead of hitting thick rough and coming to an abrupt, disappearing halt doesn't require one to pull off the shot as imagine/know that it can be done with a well-executed play.    Similarly, the return of bunkers that have been lost with time, or a new tee that brings them back into play doesn't require a successful shot to recognize that they now influence one's attempted strategy from the tee.

Personally, I've given some of my best scores to courses where I've played horribly (Joe Bausch can attest to my Plainfield debacle), and poor scores to courses I've played wonderfully by managing to hit it pretty straight all day but that played one-dimensionally because of architectural features lost to time that beg for recovery.

Good question, though...I hope that's a good answer.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Restoration/Renovation and Rankings
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2020, 02:13:54 PM »
Are there courses where the DS rating has gone down after a restoration/renovation?
Atb
Highlands Links after Graham Cooke's renos a few decades ago.


I haven't seen that, but it's probably a good example.


Strangely, bad renovations to courses started being much less common not long after The Confidential Guide was published!

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration/Renovation and Rankings
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 02:36:30 PM »
Are there courses where the DS rating has gone down after a restoration/renovation?
Atb
Highlands Links after Graham Cooke's renos a few decades ago.


I haven't seen that, but it's probably a good example.


Strangely, bad renovations to courses started being much less common not long after The Confidential Guide was published!


I can think of one...

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restoration/Renovation and Rankings
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 03:57:11 PM »
Tom,
I saw the same things you saw at that time (it had changed for the worse well before that) which is why I said your 10 rating was off the mark.  I wrote a nice thank you letter to the club after my one visit but told them for what it was with what I thought was wrong.  I still loved the golf course for some of the reasons you mentioned but I had it in the 8 range at best.  I believe it is much improved now but in fairness I have only played it once since the C&C renovation so I need another look. 

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