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Wayne_Kozun

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New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« on: August 17, 2020, 08:03:01 PM »
We are proud to announce the formation of Whitman, Axland & Cutten.  Our firm is the result of a great mutual respect and friendship.  We at WAC Golf believe in leaving everything on the ‘field’ and putting our heart and soul into every project we undertake.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2020, 10:49:23 PM »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2020, 08:51:51 AM »
I didn't know they built Prairie Dunes!

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2020, 09:32:35 AM »
I didn't know they built Prairie Dunes!


Unless I am missing something, PD is clearly identified as a "Consulting" project, with the details of that engagement spelled out.  Their projects are sorted by "All", "Consulting", "New Build" and "Renovation". 
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2020, 09:39:18 AM »
This was a tough secret to keep because I was so excited about it. Very excited for three great lads!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2020, 01:50:03 PM »
I didn't know they built Prairie Dunes!


Unless I am missing something, PD is clearly identified as a "Consulting" project, with the details of that engagement spelled out.  Their projects are sorted by "All", "Consulting", "New Build" and "Renovation".


Kevin:


I'm sure that's true, and it's not like most here didn't know that.  But when I looked at their site, I scrolled through a series of pictures of different projects, that were not labeled other than with the name of the course.


I know that Dave has done a lot of good work at Prairie Dunes [both with Bill Coore and without].  I just don't think any designer should leave the impression that rebuilding bunkers is in the same category as the new courses you've built, and there is a LOT of that on various designers' web sites these days.  In that respect, WAC is just "keeping up with the Joneses".  :D

Keith Cutten

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2020, 03:13:09 PM »
I didn't know they built Prairie Dunes!


Unless I am missing something, PD is clearly identified as a "Consulting" project, with the details of that engagement spelled out.  Their projects are sorted by "All", "Consulting", "New Build" and "Renovation".


Kevin:


I'm sure that's true, and it's not like most here didn't know that.  But when I looked at their site, I scrolled through a series of pictures of different projects, that were not labeled other than with the name of the course.


I know that Dave has done a lot of good work at Prairie Dunes [both with Bill Coore and without].  I just don't think any designer should leave the impression that rebuilding bunkers is in the same category as the new courses you've built, and there is a LOT of that on various designers' web sites these days.  In that respect, WAC is just "keeping up with the Joneses".  :D


Tom ... please click on the image before passing judgement.  It will take you to this page where all credit you desire is rightfully given - LINK

"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2020, 04:07:24 PM »

Tom ... please click on the image before passing judgement.  It will take you to this page where all credit you desire is rightfully given - LINK

 ::)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2020, 07:00:05 PM »
Keith
...never mind

Tim Martin

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2020, 05:46:33 AM »
Best of luck!!!

John Mayhugh

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2020, 08:03:07 AM »
Good luck to you guys.

One suggestion about Prairie Dunes - you really should show before/after photos of the 7th green site. Massive aesthetic improvement.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2020, 09:29:39 AM »
I thought Dave Axland worked on the renovation of Oak Ridge here in Minnesota, just opened this summer. Surprised to not see that on your site?
H.P.S.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2020, 07:49:59 PM »
I didn't know they built Prairie Dunes!


Unless I am missing something, PD is clearly identified as a "Consulting" project, with the details of that engagement spelled out.  Their projects are sorted by "All", "Consulting", "New Build" and "Renovation".


Kevin:


I'm sure that's true, and it's not like most here didn't know that.  But when I looked at their site, I scrolled through a series of pictures of different projects, that were not labeled other than with the name of the course.


I know that Dave has done a lot of good work at Prairie Dunes [both with Bill Coore and without].  I just don't think any designer should leave the impression that rebuilding bunkers is in the same category as the new courses you've built, and there is a LOT of that on various designers' web sites these days.  In that respect, WAC is just "keeping up with the Joneses".  :D


Tom,


You clearly are one of the top 25 or so architects of all time. So why the need to belittle others? I doubt that WAC is a competitor, but even if it were, gca.com is not where those decisions are made. It is your home field for better or worse.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2020, 02:50:25 PM »
Ira,


I get Tom's point.  I have been on both sides of leaving an established firm to starting my own firm, and having associates leave me to start their own.  While TD isn't involved, I believe it is a bit of a conceptual sore spot with most gca's.  While there are no firm rules, there are some customs involved that most of us follow.


When I left, I even moved to Texas to avoid being a direct competitor with my mentors.  I may have used Kemper Lakes (clearly labeled as an assistant architect to KN) but only for a very short time.


I have had associates leave my firm, and of course, they need to feature work they did with me to get started.  I don't get upset if it is clearly labeled, but so often, they get in the habit of not doing so, getting caught up or whatever in selling work.  It has hurt me in a few instances where my former associates have labeled themselves as my partner., or having "really done the work, with little supervision." (largely BS)  I got reports of one former employee calling me a drunk (I have one beer a month, at most!) or uncreative and dumb as a stump (to a potential client we were both going after) and a host of other things.  Of course, all of them took my specs, contracts, etc etc etc (although I was also guilty of that one, at least changing the typeface!)


Any hint of overstating your resume is usually met with some cynicism in the industry and it usually causes some hard feelings.  Even if not directly involved, as neither TD or I am, it still rankles some feathers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2020, 02:53:07 PM »
BTW,


Didn't want to mix it with that downer post, nor am I saying Whitman, Axland and Cutten (inc?) did anything underhanded.


Just wanted to say congrats.  Starting a new firm is always an exciting time and I wish them well.  I remember when I was a young buck newb in the field, and succeeding is always a source of great joy for all those involved.  It has been interesting to view the field at different ages and stages of my career.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Keith Cutten

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2020, 02:55:54 PM »
Wayne:  Thank you for starting this thread!
Tommy:  Thank you for posting a link to our new website!
Andrew:  Thanks for keeping the secret ;)
Tim:  Much appreciated!
"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

Keith Cutten

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2020, 02:58:52 PM »
Good luck to you guys.

One suggestion about Prairie Dunes - you really should show before/after photos of the 7th green site. Massive aesthetic improvement.

Great idea!  Our issue is lack of pictures.  Dave Axland is not one to take a great many photos of his own work.  If you have (or anyone on here has) good before and after images of PD, they would be greatly appreciated.
"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

Keith Cutten

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2020, 03:08:13 PM »
I thought Dave Axland worked on the renovation of Oak Ridge here in Minnesota, just opened this summer. Surprised to not see that on your site?


You are correct, but the Oak Ridge CC project was in partnership with Dan Proctor and Rodney Cole of Bunker Hill.  We chose to highlight a few select projects of Dave's design work with Bunker Hill, instead of the entire portfolio.  We felt this would be the most respectful approach (especially since all credit is given on the specific project pages).  We did the same with Rod Whitman's projects (which account for many of my own).
"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

Keith Cutten

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2020, 03:09:02 PM »
BTW,


Didn't want to mix it with that downer post, nor am I saying Whitman, Axland and Cutten (inc?) did anything underhanded.


Just wanted to say congrats.  Starting a new firm is always an exciting time and I wish them well.  I remember when I was a young buck newb in the field, and succeeding is always a source of great joy for all those involved.  It has been interesting to view the field at different ages and stages of my career.


Thanks Jeff!
"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2020, 04:05:04 PM »
One suggestion about Prairie Dunes - you really should show before/after photos of the 7th green site. Massive aesthetic improvement.

Great idea!  Our issue is lack of pictures.  Dave Axland is not one to take a great many photos of his own work.  If you have (or anyone on here has) good before and after images of PD, they would be greatly appreciated.

I'll look and see what I have.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2020, 04:44:32 PM »
Ira,


I get Tom's point.  I have been on both sides of leaving an established firm to starting my own firm, and having associates leave me to start their own.  While TD isn't involved, I believe it is a bit of a conceptual sore spot with most gca's.  While there are no firm rules, there are some customs involved that most of us follow.


When I left, I even moved to Texas to avoid being a direct competitor with my mentors.  I may have used Kemper Lakes (clearly labeled as an assistant architect to KN) but only for a very short time.


I have had associates leave my firm, and of course, they need to feature work they did with me to get started.  I don't get upset if it is clearly labeled, but so often, they get in the habit of not doing so, getting caught up or whatever in selling work.  It has hurt me in a few instances where my former associates have labeled themselves as my partner., or having "really done the work, with little supervision." (largely BS)  I got reports of one former employee calling me a drunk (I have one beer a month, at most!) or uncreative and dumb as a stump (to a potential client we were both going after) and a host of other things.  Of course, all of them took my specs, contracts, etc etc etc (although I was also guilty of that one, at least changing the typeface!)


Any hint of overstating your resume is usually met with some cynicism in the industry and it usually causes some hard feelings.  Even if not directly involved, as neither TD or I am, it still rankles some feathers.


Jeff,


I respect your points both because you are in the business and you have never been reluctant to disagree with Tom. However, I disagree with the notion that Tom is somehow protecting the integrity of gca marketing. As you state twice, WAC are not former employees/associates of his. I am quite sure that Messrs Coore, Crenshaw, and Proctor are quite capable of speaking for themselves should they decide to do so. And as I previously stated, my guess is that Tom will not lose any business to WAC.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2020, 04:57:11 PM »
Ira,


I doubt TD will lose any business either, although they both look to be competing in the restoration of classic courses market.


I am one of the few guys in the biz who maintains that there is enough work for almost everybody.  Others blame competition for not getting a project here or there, but I have always felt it is my job to convince potential clients I am the best possible candidate, and if I don't, its my fault, not that someone else was playing dirty (which some in the biz almost automatically assume)


That said, my belief (and I hate to speak for Tom) is that his post just comes from a bit of frustration in that department.  Whether it hurts him or not, he probably still feels it is just a bit wrong.  All I can really say is I have seen a lot of friction in the biz between firms, based on supposed marketing claims.


Of course, I could be wrong, too!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2020, 06:17:41 PM »
Jeff,


IMO, Tom's post came after only a superficial scroll of the website, and therefore in my view was not a legitimate criticism.  Not sure why you would defend something like that.  I have no stake in this...just a long time GCA guy, now very infrequent poster.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2020, 10:33:53 AM »
Ira, Kevin,


Fair enough.  I checked their site and they go out of their way on their history section to credit where they worked.  (Actually a neat idea to put the chronology in like that)  So, maybe Tom (and I) jumped the gun a bit. 


All I can say for sure is that giving and taking credit for/by associates can be a sore spot, and in my experience, hard feelings after split offs are pretty widespread, lessened quite a bit when the new firm is as transparent as possible, i.e., wherever you show a project, be clear what your role is, even on the overview page. 


And, that is not only to appease anyone that mentored them along the way, but because, in reality, its better for them.  No one gets every job.  Some clients wouldn't hire a new firm, others embrace it.  You are who you are, personal relationships get more jobs than long resumes, and (insert your favorite cliché here)  And, I remember losing a job to Bob Cupp and asking the owner why.  Answer was, "same product, lower design fee, and  "every time I say Bob Cupp, I can say Jack Nicklaus."  My guess is mentioning Ben Crenshaw, Bill Coore, Pete and Alice, etc., would have a similar effect for them.....


Anyway, I am sure WAC already know all of that.  Again, good luck on the new venture! 



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New firm - Whitman, Axland and Cutten, GCA
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2020, 10:58:37 AM »
I didn't know they built Prairie Dunes!


Unless I am missing something, PD is clearly identified as a "Consulting" project, with the details of that engagement spelled out.  Their projects are sorted by "All", "Consulting", "New Build" and "Renovation".


Kevin:


I'm sure that's true, and it's not like most here didn't know that.  But when I looked at their site, I scrolled through a series of pictures of different projects, that were not labeled other than with the name of the course.


I know that Dave has done a lot of good work at Prairie Dunes [both with Bill Coore and without].  I just don't think any designer should leave the impression that rebuilding bunkers is in the same category as the new courses you've built, and there is a LOT of that on various designers' web sites these days.  In that respect, WAC is just "keeping up with the Joneses".  :D


Tom,


You clearly are one of the top 25 or so architects of all time. So why the need to belittle others? I doubt that WAC is a competitor, but even if it were, gca.com is not where those decisions are made. It is your home field for better or worse.


Ira

Belittle?   ::)

Since when did advice on how to properly represent your work amount to belittling?

Fix your stuff guys!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 11:03:56 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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