[Joe Zucker]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.


The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.


I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

+1

Pales in comparison to the "Mid Ams" who almost always are former touring professionals(or wanna bes who played on multiple mini tours)
Dillard Pruit played 8 years on the PGA Tour and WON on tour.
REGARDLESS of what you now do for a living, your experience and skill attained on tour, are an invaluable advantage.
A couple of weeks of practice and such a player is a formidable opponent, even if they are suddenly an "amateur" again.
That is NOT an amateur, yet a shirt folding assistant pro working 70 hours a week that never plays, is not considered an amateur.
Caddies are also an interesting case, making money guiding people around a course(many would call that teaching and certainly some are)yet are considered amateurs, same as college golf coaches....

I'll second this.  The top mid am circuit is dominated by reinstated amateurs who played pro for years.  Even at the state level, it's tough to compete as a "regular" mid am because any field has multiple former pros.  If I were golf czar, it would take a lot longer to get your status back. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Thinking of the Jack-Tiger debates (with 'strength of field' arguments and claims about 'today's better athletes' and our 'greater understanding' of how the swing works): wouldn't the current #1 ranked amateur actually be the best amateur who's ever lived (save for Tiger), and certainly a much better golfer than every single amateur named on this thread (save for Tiger)? Indeed, in terms of that long list of names stretching back over 100 years, you might even argue that the world's 10th ranked amateur is better than all of them. Maybe even the 20th ranked amateur in the world -- or the 50th!

[John Kavanaugh]

Given how much of our lives are now in the cloud it wouldn't be that difficult to have handicaps adjusted based on everything in our lives that have made us the player we are today.


Former winner on Tour -3
Former tour card holder -2
Mini Tour player -1
Two parent home with a loving father -1
D1 full ride college player -1
Raised by a single mother public course upbringing +1
Micropenis +2
etc. etc.


Or we could just tee it up and be that guy who wins one out of twenty tournaments he enters. Cause that's not all that bad if you know which tournaments fit your game.

[Wayne_Kozun]

What about Trip Kuehne?  College roomate of Mickelson before transferring away from AZ State.  Was 6 up after 18 against Tiger in the 94 final, brother of Kelli and Hank.  Never turned pro.

[Dub_ONeill]

Frank Stranahan eventually turned professional but had an interesting amateur career winning more PGA Tour events as an amateur than anyone along with several high finishes in major championships
  From Wiki:
He won two major championships (as they were counted at the time): the 1948 and 1950 [/size]British Amateurs[/color][/size].[/color][/size][2][/font][/size][/color] Stranahan was runner-up in five other major championships, including the [/font][/color][/size]British Amateur[/color][/size], the [/color][/size]Masters Tournament[/color][/size], [/color][/size]The Open Championship[/color][/size], and the [/color][/size]U.S. Amateur[/color][/size]. He won the [/color][/size]Canadian Amateur Championship[/color][/size] in 1947 and 1948.[/color][/size][2][/font][/size][/color] He won the Tam O'Shanter All-American Amateur six consecutive years from 1948 to 1953[/font][/color]

[Rick Shefchik]

Another guy who's been largely forgotten is Bud Ward. He eventually turned pro in 1950, but a decade prior to that, as the PGA Tour was just blossoming, he was probably one of the five or ten best players in the U.S. He won the 1939 U.S. Amateur, the 1940 Western Amateur when that field was usually as good as the U.S. Am, and then won the U.S. Am again in 1941, in addition to the Western Amateur and the Pacific Northwest Amateur. He won the 1942 Tam O'Shanter All American Amateur and added a third Western Amateur in 1947. He finished one shot out of the three-way playoff (Nelson-Wood-Shute) for the 1939 U.S. Open (edging Snead by a shot), and fifth in the 1947 U.S. Open (2 shots ahead of Hogan.) He played in six Masters, never missing the cut, with his best finish tied for 21st in 1940.
[/size][/font]

[Mike_Clayton]

Michael Bonallack was pretty good. 5 x British and 5 x English amateur champion. 9 Walker Cups and 7 Eisenhower's.

[MCirba]

😁

[Adrian_Stiff]

Frank Stranahan would have been the obvious #2 in modern times but he did turn professional towards the end. Michael Bonnallack is the best British Amateur as Mike Clayton states he was very dominant almost unbeatable for 10 years. Joe Carr in the decade before the same.


Old timers like John Ball, Harold Hilton are always hard to judge against more recent players, 8 Amateur wins and the Open and a pair of championships for HH mean they go into the mix.


Don't know enough to comment on the USA ones... Johnny Goodman, though not sure if he turned pro.

[JohnVDB]

One modern mid-am who never turned pro is Nathan Smith. 4 US Mid-Ams and a Four-Ball along with a state team championship. He also has won a ton of Pennsylvania and Western Pennsylvania championships and played on 2 Walker Cup teams.

[Colin Sheehan]

Jim,
Here's the list I helped create two years ago. Scroll down and it lists them from 1 to 50 with some backgrounds.



https://silverclubgolfingsociety.com/a-competitive-golfing-society/the-top-50-amateur-golfers-of-all-time/


Obviously, this list includes those who became professionals. And it wasn't meant to be the final word. I would certainly tweak it upon review as there is always someone missing. Plus we were factoring those who reached the mountaintop of amateur golf briefly before turning professional.


As for former Yalies, Robert Gardner '12 was twice Amateur Champion and Jess Sweetser '23 defeated Bobby Jones 8&7 at Brookline in the 1922 Amateur during the start of his senior year. A few years later he would become the first American born winner of the British Amateur in 1926 at Muirfield. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Jay Sigel hit it so good!   He did turn pro at 50 but pretty much was a carer amateur. Has to be top five and maybe you could argue he's as high as two or three. Bobby Jones of course being number 1


Sigel was really really good. Hit it a mile and had incredible discipline when playing. Won the Philly Open a bunch of times and all the local pro's new how good he was. His amateur record in USGA events is outstanding


Vinnie Giles definitely top ten!

[JESII]

There really is a short list of lifetime amateurs. I believe Jones and Ouimet are eliminated...Sigel as well.


Colin's list is pretty cool although it is probably self evident that the greatest players ever would also have had great records as amateurs prior to turning pro.


Since we're all picking local legends...Bill Hyndman would be firmly in that best of the rest category. I like the Nathan Smith pick as an in-state competitor. 4 US Mid-Ams in the age when most winners are in fact former pros is noteworthy. Good record in the regular Am, but not a finalist I don't think.

[JESII]

I can speak to the amateur reinstatement process from experience. I agree that the waiting time should be longer than current. At least for me, there was a real mental advantage in competition...but I disagree that it should be permanent. Golf is unique in many ways, and the infrastructure to provide competitive opportunities for virtually all age player is one of them.


I was a good amateur that thought it would be worth the effort and time to try to make a living playing golf. I couldn't, but don't regret the effort at all. I spent three years and had a three year waiting period to regain amateur status.


Missing a State Amateur at my home course and a US Amateur at a favorite nearby course by 5 and 3 weeks respectively stung a little bit but golf had certainly moved down the priority list by that point

[Joel Pear]

Dean Beman had a great amateur career and turned pro much later in life.  Here in the Chicago area, Joel Hirsch, and Bill Shean come to mind.  Hirsch 4-spotted at the Western Open when he was 58 years old. 

[Carl Rogers]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.


The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.


I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

+1

Pales in comparison to the "Mid Ams" who almost always are former touring professionals(or wanna bes who played on multiple mini tours)
Dillard Pruit played 8 years on the PGA Tour and WON on tour.
REGARDLESS of what you now do for a living, your experience and skill attained on tour, are an invaluable advantage.
A couple of weeks of practice and such a player is a formidable opponent, even if they are suddenly an "amateur" again.
That is NOT an amateur, yet a shirt folding assistant pro working 70 hours a week that never plays, is not considered an amateur.
Caddies are also an interesting case, making money guiding people around a course(many would call that teaching and certainly some are)yet are considered amateurs, same as college golf coaches....

I'll second this.  The top mid am circuit is dominated by reinstated amateurs who played pro for years.  Even at the state level, it's tough to compete as a "regular" mid am because any field has multiple former pros.  If I were golf czar, it would take a lot longer to get your status back.

Agreed, the Mid Am's are a charade.  Many years to cross back and extended effort mentoring junior golf.  Give something back to the game

[Peter Flory]

When Bobby Jones bet on himself in 1930, his bet paid off at $60K.  That is the equivalent of $931K in today's dollars.  It would be nice being that type of an amateur. 

[Peter Flory]

I had that opinion too once (of the reinstated pros ruining the am events). But the more guys like that who I have come to know, the more that I realize that they really weren't professionals.  In the majority of cases, they were college players who wanted to give it a go to see what their potential could be.  They turned pro, went and played on a micro tour and soon realized that they either weren't good enough or couldn't continue to waste money while trying to see if they were.  By the time they are a mid am, the dream is long over and they are usually playing catch-up in the working world and are taking vacation days to play in the US Mid Am.  Usually they don't belong to a private club. 

[JESII]

Peter, Bobby Jones was not an amateur as a result of that bet...not sure exactly what you're saying. He forgave his amateur status.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am ashamed I ever used the fact that a guy was a reinstated amateur as an excuse for getting beat. Last year I came in second in a club event to a touring LPGA pro who went on to win a Tour event a month later. A member is a member is a member. Let the best golfer that day win.


I don't think there is a golfer alive that doesn't play at whatever level they choose. If you don't like losing make different choices.

[ward peyronnin]

Bob Cochran?
He played golf with Bobby Jones at Augusta National at Jones' invitation! He finished ahead of Byron Nelson in 1945 at the Memphis Open the year Nelson won 18 Pro events, including 11 in a row!!  He won a pro tour event in 1943, the Decatur Open shooting 198 for three rounds.  In 1945 he won the Chicago Victory Amateur and the Great Lakes Amateur along with the Tam O'Shanter World Amateur title against the best amateurs in the country. He finished 2nd in the British Amateur and won the North and South Senior twice.  He played on a Walker Cup team at age 48, competed in 3 Masters, 14 US Amateurs and 6 US Opens.   And that's what he did outside of his home state.  In Missouri he won the State Amateur 4 times, the St. Louis District title 8 times, the State Senior title 5 times, the District Senior crown 8 times and at least 13 titles competing against pro and amateur alike. His career began in 1931 when he won the Western Junior and the St. Louis Junior, with his last crown coming in the District Senior in 1982 at age 71.  He is, of course, Robert E. Cochranthe Old Grey Fox.
When I learned of him from his son ( coaching Rhodes College team)he had just been back to St Louis for a visit and his old man had beat him shooting 36 when he was 90 yrs old

[Edward Glidewell]

I think the further back you go, the harder it is to make this determination. There are so many local legend types back in the mid-20th century.


I know there was a guy named Bill Harvey in Greensboro, NC in the 50s/60s who played in something like 20 US Amateurs (don't think he ever won one) and won all of the North Carolina amateur events, as well as some other big amateur tournaments (I think he won the Porter Cup once). I have no idea if he ever tried to play in the British Am or if he did very much playing outside of NC at all. His son was on a Walker Cup team and has played in the Masters and the US Open as an amateur.

[Jeff Fortson]

I love the annual bash reinstated amateurs thread.


I have an answer for those that have contempt of the 100+ year historical tradition and practice of reinstatement...




Play better.

[JMEvensky]

I love the annual bash reinstated amateurs thread.


I have an answer for those that have contempt of the 100+ year historical tradition and practice of reinstatement...




Play better.

I would agree. Most reinstated amateurs are like Sully's situation noted above--they spent a couple of years trying to make the PGAT and, for whatever reason, things didn't work out. A 2 or 3 year waiting period seems reasonable.


Guys like Dillard Pruitt and Jim Holtgrieve are always trotted out as proof the reinstatement system doesn't work. But they're outliers and don't really represent the usual kind of player the rule was meant to deal with.


But if you want to discuss a reinstated amateur being chosen Walker Cup captain...

[Jeff Fortson]

Guys like Dillard Pruitt and Jim Holtgrieve are always trotted out as proof the reinstatement system doesn't work. But they're outliers and don't really represent the usual kind of player the rule was meant to deal with.


But if you want to discuss a reinstated amateur being chosen Walker Cup captain...

Holtgrieve is a perfect example of how the governing bodies have treated the concept of amateurism and reinstatement.  While those are two examples of players that are held up by the anti-reinstatement camp, Holtgrieve's example is there for everyone to see.  If you are approved for reinstatement, the USGA doesn't look at it as a stain to your amateur reputation.  Period.  So why do some avid golfers get upset by it? The governing bodies have rules around the subject, they vet the process, and hand out multi-year waiting periods for pros to be reinstated. 


The glorification of competitive lifelong amateurs is the glorification of mainly leisure-class AINO's.  I know amateurs that play and practice as much as tour players.  Most mid-am golf is dominated by this class. The ongoing narrowing of defining a puritanical version of "amateurism" starts to question what people do for a living. Do they work 40+ hours a week? Do they have kids? Did they inherit money or have a trust fund? Eventually I'm sure those that keep narrowing the focus on what a "real" amateur is will do enough virtue signaling that it will be they themselves that represent "true" amateurism.  It's all a construct outside of the way the governing bodies have dealt with it for a long time.


So, to bring this back "on-topic", I nominate my dad as a lifelong amateur hero.  Played in 1 US Public Links, stayed around scratch his whole life while only being able to play down at the local muni early every Saturday, and scratched out just enough of a retirement where he can go to St. Andrews with my mom every summer for two months and play golf. 

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