Best Amateur Ever

[Jim Hoak]

Reading the posts on the US National Amateur and on Chick Evans, got me to thinking about the all-time best amateurs for life--those who never turned professional.  I know that there are fewer of those around anymore; it's of note that the last winner of the US Amateur to never turn pro was Fred Ridley in 1975.  He got on on to bigger and better things.
It's obvious that the answer to the question of the greatest ever lifelong amateur has to be Bobby Jones.  But who else is there; who is second?  I don't know of the early UK amateur golfers, but I'll toss out Charlie Coe as my thought as the second best lifelong amateur in US golf  history.  His record in Amateurs and the Masters was phenomenal.  But maybe Chick Evans would rank up there too.  Anyone else got any nominations?

[James Brown]

Francis Quimet has to be right up there at #2

[Jim Sherma]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.


The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.


I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

[Tim Martin]

Dick Siderowf from New Britain, Connecticut may not be 2nd but he’s up there. His career highlights are impressive.


2 British Amateur wins
2 Northeast Amateur wins
5 Connecticut Amateur wins
5 Metropolitan Amateur wins
3 Connecticut Open wins
8 Masters appearances
3 U.S. Open appearances
Played on four winning Walker Cup teams and captained a fifth to victory
Played on two Eisenhower Trophy teams

[Jim Hoak]

I followed up on my question with someone that many of us know and respect a lot, David Normoyle.  A great golf historian.  He came up with Francis Ouimet and Bill Campbell, but he also thought that Jay Sigel could be in there if he hadn't turned pro later on.
I have to agree that Francis Ouimet has to probably be #2, but I'd still like to share some of Charlie Coe's record--2 US Am wins and second to Nicklaus in 1959.  2nd in the British Am in 1951.  4 Trans-Miss wins. 6 Walker Cup teams, twice captain.  Played in 19 Masters, made 15 cuts and 3 top 10's.  Was Low Am 6 times, and in 1961 was second, losing to Gary Player by a shot.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Here in Virginia, we think very highly of Vinnie Giles. He won both the US and British Ams, plus many other lesser tourneys.
He might not get into the top ten, however.

[JMEvensky]

Here in Virginia, we think very highly of Vinnie Giles. He won both the US and British Ams, plus many other lesser tourneys.

He might not get into the top ten, however.

And a Senior Am. He's top ten in my book.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Joe Carr

[Thomas Dai]

‘Amateur’ as in had a full time 5-day per week job with the full time job not being connected to the golf business in any way? Um ....?
Atb

[David_Tepper]

How about Joyce Wethered?

https://web.archive.org/web/20101225045839/http://hickorygolfers.com/articletemplate.php?art=joycewethered.php

 

[Jeff Evagues]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.


The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.


I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

+1

[James Reader]

John Ball - 1 Open and 8 Amateurs - and Harold Hilton - 2 Opens, 4 Amateurs and 1 US Amateur - must be in the mix.

[Ira Fishman]

Joyce Wethered:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101225045839/http://hickorygolfers.com/articletemplate.php?art=joycewethered.php

+1. Evans, Coe, Carr, and her. And don't forget Johnny Goodman.

[Jim_Coleman]

Jay Sigel won 6 USGA events, a British Am, and played on 9 Walker Cup teams. Only turned pro as a senior.

[Kalen Braley]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.

The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.

I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

Whats the difference between that and Bobby Jones who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and had every advantage to spend as much time playing golf as he wished from a very young age.  He too was on the university golf team for Georgia Tech and traveled the world playing various events with a mix of pros and amateurs.

I guess he's off the list too...

Wikipedia also says this:

"Jones made 18 instructional golf films in Hollywood between 1931 and 1933 in which he coached well-known film stars on golf. The films were popular, and Jones gave up his amateur status while earning lucrative contract money for this venture"

[SL_Solow]

John Ball.  First Englishman to win the Open Championship.  Eight British Amateur Championships over 24 years.

[Sean_A]

For me its Harold Hilton. I actually would consider him top 20 pro or amateur.  He won two Opens and travelled overseas to win the US Am. John Ball is just behind.

Ciao

[Jim Sherma]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.

The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.

I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

Whats the difference between that and Bobby Jones who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and had every advantage to spend as much time playing golf as he wished from a very young age.  He too was on the university golf team for Georgia Tech and traveled the world playing various events with a mix of pros and amateurs.

I guess he's off the list too...

Wikipedia also says this:

"Jones made 18 instructional golf films in Hollywood between 1931 and 1933 in which he coached well-known film stars on golf. The films were popular, and Jones gave up his amateur status while earning lucrative contract money for this venture"

Jones' amateur status was certainly in the grey areas at time. This is likely one of the reasons that he only played in his own event after 1930. However, Jones' silver spoon amateurism is certainly closer to the Victorian concept of the Gentleman Amateur then someone who needs to have a job in order to earn his keep. Also, I doubt that the Georgia Tech golf experience in that era has little in common with Oregon State's today.


Earlier than Jones there were the questions about amateur status regarding Tillinghast and Travis among others. Maybe the whole concept of amateurism is a flawed class-based distinction meant to be as fluid as the gatekeepers desire. Assuming that there is a need to keep some distinction it seems like there is little reason to keep top college golfers as amateurs other than the need to stack the Walker Cup teams and pad their resumes.

[John Kavanaugh]

Whats the difference between that and Bobby Jones who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and had every advantage to spend as much time playing golf as he wished from a very young age. 

The above has zero to do with golf aptitude. The hate is getting old.

[Ronald Montesano]

This thread is mistitled. You are not searching for the Best Amateur Ever. You are searching for Best Competitive Amateur Record.

In order to do this, you need to establish a point structure for important amateur performances. These should be limited to the British and US Amateur championships, British and US Open Championships, Masters Tournament (and female counterpart), International Caps. If you feel that other events should be included, given particular strength of field, make suggestions.


Best Amateur Ever will always be spoiled by twaddlers who contest what amateur status truly entails, alongside palaverers who debate whether cross-generational comparisons can ever be legitimated and executed.


Best Lifelong Amateur Ever is another matter.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

All excellent points, and your 2nd paragraph probably sums it up the best, especially if you extend the scope to other sports,  Olympians, etc and ask what was original intent. I view it as "what is ones primary source of income"? Yes top level college sports offers much in the way of benefits, but its not technically income, even if there is a measurable monetarily value.

But then again, I'm in the camp that top players in high profile sports like Football and Basketball should be compensated for what they bring to the table above and beyond the value of a 4 year education.

[jeffwarne]

I have real issues with college golfers being called amateurs. The amount of benefits that a scholarship golfer gets based on their playing the game far dwarfs any classical concept of amateurism that I am aware of. Paid for equipment, travel, training, practice and competition, not to mention the $-value of the scholarship. If anything these players are more a kin to playing professionals than any club pro with which I am aware of.


The business model of these college sports would be deemed professionalism if it did not have the cover of the university's branding on the shirts and bags.


I understand that they are considered amateurs by the powers that be, but major division 1 programs certainly fall outside of the spirit of the concept.

+1

Pales in comparison to the "Mid Ams" who almost always are former touring professionals(or wanna bes who played on multiple mini tours)
Dillard Pruit played 8 years on the PGA Tour and WON on tour.
REGARDLESS of what you now do for a living, your experience and skill attained on tour, are an invaluable advantage.
A couple of weeks of practice and such a player is a formidable opponent, even if they are suddenly an "amateur" again.
That is NOT an amateur, yet a shirt folding assistant pro working 70 hours a week that never plays, is not considered an amateur.
Caddies are also an interesting case, making money guiding people around a course(many would call that teaching and certainly some are)yet are considered amateurs, same as college golf coaches....

[Dan_Callahan]

Hard not to put Tiger in the conversation of best amateur career ever. Three consecutive Junior Ams followed by three consecutive US Ams is pretty damn impressive. And he ended his amateur career with 18 consecutive match play victories. And was the NCAA individual champion.

[Pete_Pittock]

They might not summit but I'Lloyd chip in Harvey ward, Buddy Marucci and Billy Joel Patton.
Was Tom Morris Jr considered a professionlal?

[Joe Bausch]

I’ll nominate my good friend Mike Cirba.  After a middling high school career, he has become dedicated to the craft.  Recently he made his maiden voyage to the CC of York.  He was taming this Ross classic, sinking an eagle putt on the first nine closer and would have been 5 or 6 under if I hadn’t distracted him with Internet photos.


Then he began the second nine.  It started promising by nearly driving the green on the 10th and burning the edge for birdie, but the dream round soon turned into a 1995 era VH1 Behind the Scenes episode:  things went horribly, horribly wrong.