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Tom Bacsanyi

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BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« on: August 08, 2020, 01:18:04 PM »
...now has a page on the Twitterz. Looks CRAZY!


https://twitter.com/brazenhead12


The project is on a defunct 18 hole course, taking it down to 12.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2020, 01:17:46 PM »
I'm super excited to see how this project develops.


It's not going to be just a 12 hole course, but is split up into a variety of little loops. This course has the potential to have a huge impact on the local golf community, develop a cult following similar to Goat Hill or WP9, and fundamentally change the way the game thinks about what a course can be.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 08:45:29 AM »
What was the prior course? Where in Jackson is this?

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 09:41:36 AM »
Former Colonial Country Club. The course will start in the NW corner of the property.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 10:08:11 AM »
This course has the potential to have a huge impact on the local golf community, develop a cult following similar to Goat Hill or WP9, and fundamentally change the way the game thinks about what a course can be.


At least Earl Woods waited until after Tiger was born.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 10:30:28 AM »



Tom,


Correct me if I'm wrong, haven't you spoken in the past about 12 hole courses and the advantages they may have on the future of the game?


I would think a project like this would be something you would be interested in.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 11:25:33 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, haven't you spoken in the past about 12 hole courses and the advantages they may have on the future of the game?

I would think a project like this would be something you would be interested in.




Actually, I'm not a big believer in twelve-hole courses changing the future.  If we could get to the point that people don't care whether a course is twelve holes or eighteen [or fifteen], that would be a real game-changer, and some of the recent short courses have been a great step in that direction.  But the idea that twelve is some new magic number has been overhyped.

But that wasn't my point.  My point was there is a pretty big difference between "something I would be interested in" and declaring a course that has not even started to be built may "fundamentally change the way the game thinks".  We are all excited when we have a chance to build something new - especially so these days - but that's a tall order.

JBovay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 10:08:28 AM »
It's neat to hear about a new project that challenges norms, and I hope that I'll be able to play the course if I ever visit Jackson again. I'm sure King and Collins will do a great job with it.


But I don't really think 3-, 6-, and 9-hole loops are a great selling point. 5 of the 7 worst golf courses I've ever played provide the option to return to the clubhouse after 3, 6, 9, and 12 holes (i.e., skipping 3 or 6 holes on either nine). And most non-development courses on reasonably compact properties should provide similar options. One course I grew up playing provided options for anywhere between 2 and 15 holes (if the course wasn't crowded), without any unreasonable green-to-tee walks!





Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 03:10:15 PM »
"Our mazy progress through the eighteen is a trek such as pre-historic man could understand, and the fact that the trek is fatiguingly long constitutes part of its primitive rightness. A more reasonable length - twelve holes, say - wouldn't have the resonance, the religious sense of ordeal. It is of the essence that a game of golf can't be quickly over and done with; it must be a journey."
--John Updike
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 04:20:23 PM »
Rob and Tad are close friends and I am overjoyed to see them picking up some interesting jobs. But the idea of any course changing the way we see the game is I'm afraid a bit ridiculous. Even if you went to Brazenhead and came away thinking 'This is the future' it isn't going to be so. Because we have thousands of eighteen and nine hole courses, and we're not going to build thousands of twelve holers or courses of any other length. If there is a magic bullet for golf, and frankly I'm not sure that there is, it involves new ways to use the facilities we already have.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 07:36:58 PM »
If there is a magic bullet for golf, and frankly I'm not sure that there is, it involves new ways to use the facilities we already have.


The land was an 18 hole country club for 70 years before shuttering their doors. If a new course targeted at the general public is able to grow and thrive within the community by doing something different, why wouldn't failing courses across the country look to this new way as a potential solution for their facilities?

Kye Goalby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 10:57:03 PM »
Ben,


 While it may work in a few situations ,  I think it’s rather ridiculous to think  many  “failing”  golf courses will look at the option of  spending millions of dollars as a way to stop failing. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 11:10:41 PM »
This course has the potential to have a huge impact on the local golf community, develop a cult following similar to Goat Hill or WP9, and fundamentally change the way the game thinks about what a course can be.


At least Earl Woods waited until after Tiger was born.
Imagine if Earl had had 12 holes for TW to play...

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 11:18:42 PM »
If there is a magic bullet for golf, and frankly I'm not sure that there is, it involves new ways to use the facilities we already have.


The land was an 18 hole country club for 70 years before shuttering their doors. If a new course targeted at the general public is able to grow and thrive within the community by doing something different, why wouldn't failing courses across the country look to this new way as a potential solution for their facilities?
I'm not really into anything but 18 hole golf courses.  The economies of scale rarely allow less to work...social media and millennial golf are an interesting phenomona.  Tour players financing courses via go fund me etc....let's talk all of this in 10 years...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2020, 01:50:43 AM »
Ben,


 While it may work in a few situations ,  I think it’s rather ridiculous to think  many  “failing”  golf courses will look at the option of  spending millions of dollars as a way to stop failing.


quite
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2020, 07:48:38 AM »
While it may work in a few situations ,  I think it’s rather ridiculous to think  many  “failing”  golf courses will look at the option of  spending millions of dollars as a way to stop failing.


Of course it's unique to all situations, but the state of Georgia did just that with Bobby Jones golf course. After acquiring the old 18 hole course in a land swap they completely rebuild the property as a reversible 9 hole course and driving range. After nearly 2 years of operation under the new model they appear to be doing quite well.


Granted, I believe that Bobby Jones is an outlier in this area and would agree that not many courses would either choose to or be able to fund a complete redesign. Rather I'd imagine struggling courses would look to the success of non-traditional projects such as Bobby Jones, Goat Hill, Winter Park, Sweetens Cove, Schoolhouse 9, etc.... they would see viability in this non-traditional, less than 18 hole championship model, and look to reorganize what they offer to the public. This may open the door to re-utilize some of their land, potentially using it as a new source of capital, and reorganizing the course under a new operational model that allows for greater flexibility and higher utilization.


I understand that every additional acre of green is cheaper to maintain than the previous acre and operational cost for a less than 18 hole course may not be dramatically lower. But value to the modern player seems to be focused more on time and accessibility than cost per hole.


The old definition of what golf 'is' has become more fluid in today's world. While the old guard may keep a staunch view of 18 holes or bust, newer generations are looking for more flexibility and have become adapt at appreciating the game in many forms.


It wasn't that long ago that the number of 9 hole courses in the US outnumbered 18 hole courses. I don't know if we'll get back to that point any time soon, but there does seem to be a growing lean in that direction and further appreciation for multiple acceptable versions of golf.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2020, 12:50:05 PM »
Where's the merch though.  Not gonna fundamentally change anything til that sick logo is available on an ostrich skin yardage book cover.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2020, 01:29:33 PM »
Ben,


Are you working on a logo design for this project?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2020, 01:43:09 PM »
Lots of golfers won’t think about putting a day aside for a nine hole course. You think that’s going to change with twelve?

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2020, 02:02:51 PM »
On the flip side no one really likes to fire off #1 at 6 pm on an 18 hole (unless they are paying way less than full fee), but with 9 holes (or even 12) you might. Maybe the course is jammed every morning and evening, and sun up to sun down on weekends. That vs. sparse play through the week and nutty on sat/sun.



Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2020, 02:09:00 PM »
On the flip side no one really likes to fire off #1 at 6 pm on an 18 hole (unless they are paying way less than full fee), but with 9 holes (or even 12) you might. Maybe the course is jammed every morning and evening, and sun up to sun down on weekends. That vs. sparse play through the week and nutty on sat/sun.


Tom-I’m wishing them nothing but success. My only point is that 12 holes seems an arbitrary number from the standpoint of a trend being started.

Drew Maliniak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2020, 11:49:18 AM »
It will be an experiment. Scotland's long summer days probably led us to 18 holes. If Americans had started the game, it might have been 12-14 holes. 

Sweetens has become a destination. But people forget that Chattanooga might be one of the best golf towns in the country with public options like Mt. Airy, Sewanee, Bear Trace. Plus Chattanooga CC, Honors, Black Creek and Lookout Mountain all being quite good if you can arrange it.   


Jackson has Mossy Oak and Old Waverly two hours away. Annandale and JCC are not the Honors and Lookout.












Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BrazenHead12 (King-Collins project in Jackson, MS)...
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2020, 01:57:48 PM »
Found on their FB page



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