[Enno Gerdes]

I'd nominate the 4th at Brautarholt (Iceland). Short par 4, spectacular setting, great green, and if you miss the green long, your ball is halfway to Greenland by the time you get there.

[Sean_A]

Rules of this thread are as many holes per architect as you wish...


However, I do ask people to be a little bit choosy: If the 2nd 3rd & 9th holes on the Bann course at Castlerock are all in with a chance of getting chosen in the best 18 modern holes in Europe, then what have we been doing for the last 50 years?

I’ll get a small committee together to choose the final 18.

Just adding my twopence. I like very short 1 shotters. I have never seen a short hole like the 9th. The 2nd is a very cool risk reward hole with huge temptation. The Bann isn't your thing and that's OK.

7 and 17 at Trump Aberdeen are excellent.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

One aspect worth considering is equipment. It’s essentially during the last 20 of the 50 yrs quoted that the ball/Driver have gone awry. Many of the holes/courses mentioned herein were laid out during the balata, persimmon and blades era.
Not sure when The Bann, which Sean mentions above and of which I’m also a big fan, was built but it would be wonderful with balata, persimmon and blades whereas some of the more modern holes and courses might be overly difficult unless played with modern era equipment.
Atb

[Bill Gayne]

It's several years since I've been there but the 18th at Trump Aberdeen is definitely worth a mention. I can't compare to the other Hawtree courses and holes that have been listed as I haven't seen them.

God no, it’s a terrible hole. How on earth do you make a 600 yard hole with twenty bunkers look puny? Answer, you put the tee about a mile in the air. The seventeenth is by a distance the best hold on that course imo

Like I said it's been several years for me since being there.

[Niall C]

Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???

atb

Generally speaking, I would not allow these holes as they are fixed in a hole corridor by what is already there... 17th at Hoylake possibly because it is a complete reorientation... 7th at Dornoch almost... Significant renovations (new bunkering, new green in almost same location) not permitted.

Ally


I think you're being a bit harsh, at least with regards the Dornoch hole. It effectively is a new hole corridor albeit one that sits adjacent to the old one. Whether it's any good or not is another question.


Niall

[Niall C]

There must be a couple worth nomination at Palmares but I get confused by the numbering.

+1


from what I recall most of the best golf is concentrated in one of the nines but can't recall which.


Niall

[Niall C]

It's several years since I've been there but the 18th at Trump Aberdeen is definitely worth a mention. I can't compare to the other Hawtree courses and holes that have been listed as I haven't seen them.

God no, it’s a terrible hole. How on earth do you make a 600 yard hole with twenty bunkers look puny? Answer, you put the tee about a mile in the air. The seventeenth is by a distance the best hold on that course imo

Bill


I have to agree with Adam, 18th is perhaps the worst hole on the course IMHO with the only other contender for that title being the 10th (?) which is the only with the split fairway off the tee playing through a gap in the dunes to a tiered green surrounded by dunes. Totally forced and very awkward.


That said there were more than a few holes I liked such as the par 3's and a couple of par 4's but no so much that I can be bothered to dig out the strokesaver to check what hole numbers they were.


Niall

[Jeff Schley]

Um, .... would/should holes akin to the 7th at Royal Dornoch, the 9th at Cruden Bay and the 17th at Hoylake/RLGC be allowed in the mix???

atb

Generally speaking, I would not allow these holes as they are fixed in a hole corridor by what is already there... 17th at Hoylake possibly because it is a complete reorientation... 7th at Dornoch almost... Significant renovations (new bunkering, new green in almost same location) not permitted.

Ally


I think you're being a bit harsh, at least with regards the Dornoch hole. It effectively is a new hole corridor albeit one that sits adjacent to the old one. Whether it's any good or not is another question.


Niall

It's Ally's party, but I would tend to agree with Niall and Thomas that although I haven't seen it myself yet, the entire hole is new. New tee, fairway and green. Other than it being hole #7 and still a par 4 everything else has changed.

[Niall C]

Ally


Much to my surprise I've played quite a few of the courses you listed in your OP and indeed I think I even nominated one of the holes. In some respects it's easier to pick out the ones I don't agree with on that list and in that respect the 9th at Durness and the 18th at Castle Stuart jump out at me.


Durness is a short to mid iron to a blah green. The carry isn't long and there is plenty of clearance on the other side so apart from being very photogenic it is not that much of a hole (for full disclosure I dubbed three balls off the tee down on to the rocks. Also for full disclosure, being a true Scot, I climbed down to retrieve the balls). I did enjoy the course though but perhaps more for its character rather than any great architectural merit.


Castle Stuart - no argument about 3 and 11. Two very fine holes, the short 11th in particular. The 18th however consists of a blind tee shot with a tee that suggests hitting the ball on a line that would land in what turns out to be the right hand rough. If you do hit the fairway then for most its just a dunt down a fairly wide fairway to set up a pitch to an interesting green complex. Unfortunately the green doesn't save the rest of the hole which is pure target golf dressed up as a links.


If I could add to the nominations I'd add a couple of holes at Covesea, the nine hole course up at Moray. A funky uphill short par 3 to a blind green which might not be great architecture but is great fun (possibly the 3rd ?). The other hole there is a also a short par 3 playing to a small saddle shaped green (possibly the 7th).


Also I note that Carne (McIntosh) is nominated which I'm very glad to see although not sure if the 7th is the hole I'm thinking of but there are a few holes that Ally worked on that I'd happily nominate. One in particular is the hole that is a a left to right dog-leg with the driving area being on an upper plateau which then plays down to a tiered plateau to the right with the green to the right of this lower area sitting on a higher shelf. A cracking hole.


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall, that’s the 8th at Carne Kilmore (or 11th on the new Wild Atlantic Dunes course). Seems to be quite a few people’s favourite.


Regards the 7th at Dornoch, I guess I am being really strict on what is a “new” hole. I feel an element of routing needs to be included in modern times if we are going to attribute it such.... so it should be a choice by an architect as part of a new course. Or it should be part of a 2 or 3 hole solution that helps unlock a routing issue. (For example, the two new holes at Portrush would count because they were needed in order to eradicate 17 & 18 and Ebert could have placed them anywhere on the routing and on the site, space permitting). However, happy to include it if anyone thinks it actually belongs as one of the modern greats. Does it?


Sean & Dai,


I do like the Bann a lot. And whilst I take on board David’s point about it being designed when the ball went less distance, I still think it is too small a scale for great golf. Moreover, one or two of the holes nominated I don’t believe have too much design in them. The 9th (a mini-Dell) could have been better I reckon. The pancake flat green does it no favours.


All that said, all holes will be included for consideration. 18 best holes in the last 50 years will really need to offer choices and something different to be included.


Glad we saw an Icelandic nomination. I knew there were a few unheralded crackers there.

[jeffwarne]

.

[jeffwarne]

I would not say there was a "lot of room" behind this green, nor that it was a short iron from these tees-or  that there was anything "blah" about this hole, including the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, keep the "new holes on old courses" out of it.  Don't encourage them!

[jeffwarne]

The 8th was no slouch either.

[Jeff Schley]

Nice aiming pole!

[Garland Bayley]

Yes, keep the "new holes on old courses" out of it.  Don't encourage them!

Clearly you have to consider the two new holes at Dunluce. Different locations and far superior to what they replaced.

[Thomas Dai]

Yes, keep the "new holes on old courses" out of it.  Don't encourage them!

Clearly you have to consider the two new holes at Dunluce. Different locations and far superior to what they replaced.

Are there ‘new’ holes at The Island now?
Atb


PS - ‘‘twas moi that nominated the 7th at Carne Kilmore. Could have nominated quite a few more from the 27 holes onsite at Carne as well. There are a few at Tralee and the Cashen at Ballybunion that I could have highlighted but was limiting to 1 hole/1 designer.

[Ally Mcintosh]

New holes at The Island yes.


A completely new par-3 4th (built by Hawtree in about 2008) and brand new 8th and 9th (built over the winter by Ebert). These would count if they were of sufficient quality. The two new holes are straightaway par-4’s and have eradicated the quirk.


I should have set rules in this thread. The final 18 has no limitation on holes per designer or holes per course. However, we should probably limit it to one hole per course for each person picking.... After all, we should really have to think about why a hole is a modern masterpiece rather than defaulting to a few favourites on a beloved course.

[Pete Lavallee]

Sand Valley in Poland has 3 outstanding holes:


The par 3 3rd, a pitching wedge to a tiny turtle shelled green.


The par 4 7th, a long hole with a large dune between the tee shot and the green.


The par 5 12th, with a nice bunkering scheme and an excellent green.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sand Valley in Poland has 3 outstanding holes:


The par 3 3rd, a pitching wedge to a tiny turtle shelled green.


The par 4 7th, a long hole with a large dune between the tee shot and the green.


The par 5 12th, with a nice bunkering scheme and an excellent green.

Does one stand above the other two if pushed, Pete?

[Pete Lavallee]

The par 3 3rd is completely manufactured. The par 4 7th,s dune is also manufactured but quite well done. I’d vote for the par 5 12th!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just thought of another cracking hole:


The 10th at Lough Erne (Faldo).


It is a short par-4 with a peninsula green  in the lough to the right. On its own, this might seem rather contrived but together with a severe left to right sloping fairway that is held up by a retaining wall running down the middle, there is an excellent choice on whether to play safe on the high side of the wall or directly down the right side hoping for the requisite kick-in towards the green.


Anyone played it?

[Jon Wiggett]

I am going to nominate just one which I bet only one other person on here has heard of let alone played.


The short par 4 fifth at Rastenmoos Golf Club in Luzern, Switzerland. I worked there for three years and this hole got better every time I played it.


Easily reachable off the tee but if you try and get it wrong the outcome can be a bogey. This is despite the green and surround being very modest in form. Play it safe off the tee and it was an easy par possible birdie but it was all about the angle.

[Ally Mcintosh]

OK,


Going to call this soon and take it to my little make-shift committee.


But before I do, just reminding people we have no hole from Spain, not much in France (Les Bordes, National?), hardly anything from lesser known EIGCA architects, no Frank Pont, Penati? Thracian Cliffs?... Couple of days to take last orders...


All courses updated in first post.

[Niall C]

Ally

Was Finca Cortesin not on the list at one point ?

I have played it and to be honest while perfectly pleasant, nothing to write home about. Other Cabell Robinson tracks in Spain are probably better at Santanna and La Reserva but again struggling to think of a hole that really stood out. I just find his green designs repetitive in that they all seem to have the same raised front.

Niall

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