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Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2020, 05:10:34 PM »
Yeah they are very shallow Matt.
Also two things from the broadcast so far.
  • Announcers said that the PGA doesn't want to divulge the stimpmeter speeds! Kudos for being anti-USGA Mike Davis.
  • Who are these fans wandering around? I thought they weren't allowing fans? Not many but probably a couple hundred or so.

Great question Jeff. I've already spotted two gentlemen clutching "adult beverage" cans so I hope I can assume they are not there in any "official" capacity.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2020, 06:32:59 PM »
Not sure that I've ever watched this many shots hit out of the rough before. 

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2020, 06:55:33 PM »
I have played Harding Park half a dozen times since the renovation.  Make a point to get out there every time I am in town. 


Harding Park is such a treat to play.  It’s a great walk.  The greens are interesting and it doesn’t favor any one shot shape.  I love all the cypress trees.


Being from the Mid-Atlantic region, I find Harding Park charming and inviting and different from what I normally play. 


Could play there a whole lot and not get bored, but I love meat and potatoes golf because that’s what I have played most of my life. 

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2020, 07:10:20 PM »
$300 for non residents.  No thanks


$200 weekends/$180 weekdays for nonresidents. The $300 rate is just for 2-3 weeks before and after the championship. So normal fees are about 20% less than what Torrey Pines costs for nonresidents, if that helps.  ;D

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2020, 08:05:10 PM »
"Andy Johnson called the greens cut and paste in the renovation -- and what was pasted was boring and flat -- left and right bunkers on basically every hole."

Andy Johnson's  statement regarding left and right bunkers is simply not correct. 10 of the 18 greens have bunkers only on one side of the green.


Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2020, 09:09:34 PM »
Am sure everyone is watching the broadcast but the amount of long putts falling are astounding the commentators. Greens appear pretty boring to me (flattish, like the course) but of course the wind is the predominant hazard for daily play so these pros can light up these long putts. I’ve never played it but would do so in a heartbeat, eye-candy wise.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2020, 09:56:15 PM »
Am sure everyone is watching the broadcast but the amount of long putts falling are astounding the commentators. Greens appear pretty boring to me (flattish, like the course) but of course the wind is the predominant hazard for daily play so these pros can light up these long putts. I’ve never played it but would do so in a heartbeat, eye-candy wise.


The main reason that putts are going in is that the USGA is not in charge of the agronomy and the greens are true.
US Open courses resist scoring very well when the greens are plinko and wander left and right on overly stressed bumpy crusty turf.


I have not been there but the course looks quite appealing to me.The setting is certainly spectacular, and it looks like an attractice place to play golf on a non PGA setup(hopefully they don't follow the tired, time sucking Bethpage model of retaining the setup years past the event)
I enjoy the trees suggesting ballflight and think that the ground has plenty of contour, even the greens look to have reasonable contour(certainly far more than Bethpage)that often shed/deflect poorly struck or improperly distanced controlled or improperly curved balls away from a pin, with pins often tucked behind ground hazards sloping away
The bunkers appear shallow but that means nothing to a pro as deeper greenside bunkers present no more hazard than a shallow one, in fact I would argue they are more difficult when shallow due to less definition of shot, and less upslopes to use to soften the shot.


I'm enjoying the setup as well-you can bomb it but you better gouge well
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 03:44:04 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Harding Park
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2020, 01:03:40 AM »
We all talk a good game re 'sense of place' -- well, here it is. I like it for the reasons Jeff mentions, but most of all because it's *itself*: a golden age municipal in San Francisco, an historic public course that's been renovated/restored so as to also (and once again) host the world's best golfers, and set up accordingly. Perfectly itself -- with both aesthetics and playability influenced/impacted by the climate and the trees (and the marine layer etc) that is uniquely the Bay Area. We all have different tastes and preferences, but if you appreciate golf course architecture it's hard not to appreciate a golf course that is so much of its own particular time and place.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 01:05:12 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2020, 06:27:53 AM »
Peter,
Good post.  Having played Harding Park multiple times it is the trees in particular that define the place (and when the marine layer rolls in it adds to that unique atmosphere).  Many here don’t like trees (that was clear on the Harbour Town thread) and even on the Cypress Point thread, but this is what makes golf so special - the diversity of the playing fields.  As much as I love a open wind swept links course, it is fun to play golf amidst the giant Cypress trees.  Bunkers in the sky as Mr. Jones called them.  The deep rough is the primary hazard this week at HP but the trees will impact/dictate much of the strategy as well.   
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 06:51:04 AM by Mark_Fine »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2020, 10:07:45 AM »
Played it first in 1995 for $22 as a resident.
Bought ticket from a guy smoking a cigar butt behind a cage in the...ahem..."club house".

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2020, 11:46:03 AM »
Love SF summers.  Victor Hovland has warming mitts between shots and Bryson is in short sleeves.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2020, 12:17:52 PM »
Love SF summers.  Victor Hovland has warming mitts between shots and Bryson is in short sleeves.


Viktor has been away from Norway too long.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2020, 12:43:53 PM »
Love SF summers.  Victor Hovland has warming mitts between shots and Bryson is in short sleeves.


Viktor has been away from Norway too long.
Tommy good catch I totally forgot he was from Noway. His ancestors would be disappointed ;) .
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Gib_Papazian

Re: Harding Park
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2020, 04:05:01 PM »
I dug this column up from my previous life - right after Harding reopened:

Thanks Kalen, cut and paste before yet another conference call . . .


« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 12:56:11 AM by Gib Papazian »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2020, 04:48:54 PM »
Mostly Cleaned up....  enjoyable read!

------------------------------------
PLEASE FORWARD TO ANG SPORTS. THIS IS A GOLF COLUMN FOR THE SAN MATEO TIMES TUESDAY EDITION.

By Gib Papazian

With the construction phase of Harding Park at near completion, we snuck over for a guided tour of what has been as anticipated a public course renovation as Torrey Pines South and Bethpage Black. In all honesty, nobody on the construction crew was too excited about accommodating your faithful scribe. It is no secret that I have been critical in the past of the amateurish incompetence in which San Francisco has approached this project.


Truth be told, the expected revenue stream still does not strike me as being workable, but the same can be said about most public projects in this area. However, the golf course itself - if nothing else - was well planned and an enormous improvement. Laid bare, after years of neglect and brainless agronomy, Harding Park screamed of potential. Striped of the mud, crabgrass and thatch, the majority of the property is the same as Olympic or San Francisco G.C.; beautiful, rolling, sandy soil.


Just like Scotland, Ireland, Long Island or the Oregon Coast, where Bandon and Pacific Dunes have redefined the term “Links Course” in the west, the property is enough to make any architect drool with the possibilities. What will the “new” Harding Park look like? A bit like the old version with an astounding facelift. Personally, I was disappointed in the front nine, which has undergone many modifications since Ken Venturi stalked the fairways as San Francisco’s best player.



To begin, the most recent 2th and 7th holes have been switched again. Pacing of the golf course was a consideration, but except for some dramatic bunkering at greensite, the holes still follow the same basic routing as dictated by the trees.
The Fleming Nine necessitated some strange routing changes years ago, the result of which was the current 3rd and 4th holes. The 3rd is still a rather mediocre par-3, but the 4th has been straightened out a bit.


It has always been an awkward hole, demanding a hook with a driver just to put the ball in play. The tee has been moved back and to the right, mitigating the problem. I just do not think it was moved far enough over. It is still a little awkward, and the worst mistake in design is to “miss by a little.”

My reaction to the entire front nine is that they did not bother to design some interesting geometry into the strategies of the holes, and to that extent I was quite disappointed. Even the 9th is still just a long, blase par 5.
The bunkering is attractive and well done, but the entire effort screams of a cookie-cutter approach. It is the quirky little touches that separate the simply good from the special. I saw none.


Taken as a whole, the front is good, nothing more. Given the potential, golf course panelists are likely to dismiss it as a wasted opportunity, lost to the generic, corporate approach of the PGA Tour. I guess my primary objection lies in the inescapable fact that the front nine has always been clearly inferior to the back side and needed the most “jazzing up” to stand up with the rest of the golf course.


It strikes me as backward thinking to make something intrinsically excellent even more so, while ignoring the shortcomings of what came before. However, the back nine sets up the player for a sublime finish, which is probably what general public will remember most.


The 10th and 11th have been lengthened, and much more of an appropriate challenge for the modern player from the back tees. This was accomplished because the new clubhouse is located in the old dirt parking lot to the right of the 18th fairway. Both holes present much more of a defined target, particularly the 10th, which will present a tempting risk for long hitters looking to dare the deep greenside bunkers. The major changes begin on the 12th, which may play as a long par-4 in tournament play, forcing the big gunner to squeeze a drive between the treelines. As a par-5 it would have been eaten alive by the Tour players, but the challenge is now credible.


[Thirteen is the first hole that is unrecognizable from its predecessor. Imagine the green moved far back and to the left, clinging to the far edge of the clifftops above Lake Merced. Combined with the 14th tee along the same precipice, you might have the most aesthetically satisfying holes on the golf course. The 15th asks for players to flirt with sand on the right or risk playing the approach on this short par-4 from the bottom of a catch-basin of fairway.


Strategically, the 16th and 17th are similar but a bit longer. The difference being that the bunkering and putting surfaces make sense, bearing no resemblance to the lifeless ovals surrounded by muddy ditches that once passed for sand traps.

The last hole is great. Yes, just long, challenging and sexy. Far back from the original tee, almost across the street from the Boathouse Bar, there was a small cement parking lot that overlooked an inlet of the South Lake. That is now grassed over, standing as a gun turret with the fairway far in the distance.
It is a classic Cape hole, introducing great reward for a risky carry over the corner. Timid tee shots to the right side will find a long road home because the green has moved far up the hill. For those familiar with the facility, the putting surface is now located where the back putting green once stood, with a panorama over the North Lake and the ocean linksland in the distance.


So what is my overall assessment? I must repeat my initial reaction from this space a few weeks back. Harding is going to be a rousing success. Perhaps not all that it could have been in my opinion, but everyone has their own individual prejudices and tastes. We will all enjoy and look forward to playing it. Perhaps that is the only measuring stick that matters on a project like this.

With any luck, Harding Park will spark a renaissance and renewed appreciation for golf in the corridors of power in San Francisco city government. Can you imagine Sharp Park restored as Dr. Mackenzie built it? Lincoln as quaint and charming as an English parkland course? Golden Gate maintained as the Jack Fleming intended it?

Like Harding Park, the mind reels with possibilities.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 04:51:08 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2020, 06:20:17 PM »
18 is an awkward hole.  It is like something from a real estate course where you had to fit something.  Something like this would be an improvement, as long as the parking lot remains protected from wayward drives.


https://twitter.com/TheTruArchitect/status/1291745607254761473?s=20
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2020, 07:35:45 PM »
18 is an awkward hole.  It is like something from a real estate course where you had to fit something.  Something like this would be an improvement, as long as the parking lot remains protected from wayward drives.

https://twitter.com/TheTruArchitect/status/1291745607254761473?s=20

Why do you think 18 is awkward?  Seems pretty straightforward and classic Cape to me.  And this may be a dumb question, but why would you put centerline bunkers in a Cape hole, the point of which is there is no centerline? 

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2020, 07:46:01 PM »
Hard to describe the current awkwardness of 18 for regular play, except it's not a real cape hole for most.  No one (non-PGA Tour) aims that far left.  You aim right of the trees and then you have bunkers on the outer end of the bend.  It's like something from Pelican Hill.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2020, 07:57:54 PM »
Kevin, do you know if there are any restrictions to getting the hole playing closer to the edge of the lake? The rendering you posted looks great, though it may be out of character with the rest of course as is currently presented.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2020, 08:02:51 PM »
The current hole is also out of character, hence my Pelican Hill reference.  I do not know about any restrictions in place regarding the lake...either environmental, or stability of the land.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2020, 08:06:04 PM »
I should also say...this is all just for discussion.  There is absolutely no $$ or appetite to make any changes at Harding.  If there were $$, I'd rather they were spent at Sharp, Lincoln or Golden Gate.  Or Gleneagles!
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2020, 08:22:28 PM »
Regarding environmental and/or land stability issues with Lake Merced bordering the course, I remember reading comments that there were concerns and issues. The redesign could not endanger or create potential erosion of the fairly steep drop off/slope from the level of the course down to the lake.


In fact the grade of the fairways had to slope away from the edges of the course above the lake because there was concern that water draining off the course to the lake would possibly erode the steep slopes. Because of this the course drains to its center, not too its edges.     


As a practical matter, while you might expect the greens on #14, #15, #16 and #17 to break towards the lake on the left, they don't.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 08:27:17 PM by David_Tepper »

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2020, 08:36:25 PM »
David, thanks for chiming in that makes sense.
Kevin, I meant there are no center line bunkers on the property so putting them in on 18 would be out of character. And yes of course, let's get that $$ into the other munis SF has to offer.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2020, 08:46:47 PM »
Here is the 3-page gca thread from 2003, shortly after the course reopened. There are some comments from Les Clayton. I believe he was involved with the design work.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,5963.0.html

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harding Park
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2020, 08:57:13 PM »
Here is the 3-page gca thread from 2003, shortly after the course reopened. There are some comments from Les Clayton. I believe he was involved with the design work.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,5963.0.html


Wow, funny to see what I wrote 17 years ago.


I was younger (and the trees were shorter) when I said something like "biting off as much as you can chew" on the 18th hole tee shot!   :D
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson