[Ira Fishman]

In another thread, John Kavanaugh asserted that the Chicago area has dropped out of the Top 50 golf areas in the US. As a native Chicagoan, I join Jeff Schley in objecting. The  Chicago Big Shoulders style of architecture may have fallen out of style for good reason, but some of those courses (Medinah 3, Cog 4, Butler National for example are still good courses). Plus there are Chicago Golf, Shoreacres, Olympia Fields, Skokie, Old Elm, Beverly,  and a bunch more. Chicago was never NY, but it still holds it's own. And certainly, not not in the Top 50.


I live in the DC area. I would not object to it being listed very low.


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

I said top 50 in the world. It is no longer top ten in the US. What you talking about Willis? Your tower sucks too.

[David Wuthrich]

John, just curious, what are your top 10 cities in the US?

[John Kavanaugh]

John, just curious, what are your top 10 cities in the US?

I'm going for an extended bike ride to give it some thought. But for starts I'll give you number 10.


10. Central Florida

[David Wuthrich]

Enjoy the ride!

[John Kavanaugh]

10. Central Florida
 9.  Los Angeles
 8.  Philadelphia
 7.  Bandon
 6.  Pinehurst
 5.  Chattanooga
 4.  New York/Long Island
 3.  San Francisco
 2.  Ogallala
 1.  Monterey

[Peter Flory]

The best thing about Chicago golf was that there was a lot of money here in the late 1800s/ early 1900s.  So even though the land is uninspiring, there are still a lot of really great old tracks.

The land at Shoreacres is so dramatic for this area even though it really wouldn't be that special in other areas of the Country.  After Shoreacres, I don't even know what would be the next best land here.  Maybe the back nine at Dubsdread or the land at the Merit Club.

Negatives:
Flat land
Heavy soil
Short season
Most good courses are private
No courses utilize the lake

[Jim Hoak]

Don't forget to mention the great soil in the Chicago area--good Midwestern topsoil, some of the best in the world.  It has a foot or two of the darkest, richest soil you can find.  Easy to grow terrific turf.

[Ira Fishman]

10. Central Florida
 9.  Los Angeles
 8.  Philadelphia
 7.  Bandon
 6.  Pinehurst
 5.  Chattanooga
 4.  New York/Long Island
 3.  San Francisco
 2.  Ogallala
 1.  Monterey

It is after 5:00 so I will accept your list without needless debate. So please let us know what are the 40 areas around the world that would push Chicago out of the top 50.


Ira

[Jeff Schley]

As biased as I maybe I agree with Ira.  First, I think the US has more than 10 cities in the top 50 in the world for sure and upwards of 20 or more. I would at worst think someone would say Chicago is in the top 15 cities in the USA, but I would put them in the top 10. Rather than pick apart them from others, here are their strengths and others please feel free to add as I know there are quite a few Chicagoans on here.

• A lot of old historic private courses. Agreed that Shoreacres and Chicago GC are in a league of their own and top 35 clubs in the USA. But you have DEPTH.
• Chicago has a plethora of very good privates right behind 6-8 on Doak scale. Olympia Fields (both courses), Beverly, Medinah 3, Butler National, Old Elm are comfortably in that tier.
• Want more? Doak 5-6 (maybe a 7) Skokie, Cog Hill, Conway Farms, Exmoor, Flossmoor, Buttlerfield, Black Sheep, Rich Harvest Links, North Shore, Bob O'Link, Knollwood, Onwentsia, Medinah 1
• Admittedly not great public courses at the top end, but a large bench of above average public courses. Mistwood, Harborside, Cantigny, Glen Club, Highlands, Ravisloe, Kankakee Elks to south.
• Caddie programs at the private clubs are fairly robust and the Chick Evans scholarships are a big motivation for that. Chicago clubs are very active in giving those opportunities and the genesis of the program was at Northwestern and the Western Open.
• The Western Open was a wonderful event until the PGA Tour absconded with it to tour it around. Terrible shame as it was a very well attended annual event at Butler/Cog during 4th of July weekend. How does Detroit have an annual event and Chicago doesn't?
• It is easy to get to. This should be part of the criteria, albeit not a primary consideration. I don't need to buy an expensive plane ticket to get to Chicago from almost anywhere in the USA. Bandon? That is the worst part of it is getting there and the expense. Chicago is in the middle of the country and you can find cheap flights there from anywhere.

The short golf season is just like any northern climate and understandable, the fall is a glorious season to play there with the leaves turning. I agree with Peter that until we get a renovated Jackson Park/South Shore golf course no way any course will be built on the water. It is an omission, but with the zoning/permitting/politics of the city no way you could built a new course on the Lake, at least in Illinois.
I don't care to beat down other cities to elevate Chicago, as I don't think it needs to. It speaks for itself.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


As a graduate engineer and avid golfer I lived in Chicago from 84-88 and didn't play a single course you mentioned. A tad exclusionary don't you think?

[Joe Melchiors]

John,


I was an avid young golfer in NJ for years and played none of the top courses there.  I was in Philly as well and played exactly one of the best courses there.  I've lived in Chicago for 5 years and played almost all of the top courses here....  just my experience


I'm mostly curious about how that affects your ranking (I'm guessing it does since you brought it up) - are any private clubs considered?


As someone that used to play lots of public golf in Chicago and NJ, I'd take Chicago every time (privates are another matter).


-Joe 

[Blake Conant]

Chattanooga 5... *Fonz jumping the shark*

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe,


Now some 32 years later I have played every private Chicago course that I have desired and turned down invites on the ones where I didn't have time. But I'm just another big fat red faced irishman government contractor who wouldn't turn down a drink. I do feel at home in that town.


I am proud of a lifetime ban I earned at Pine Meadow. Seems that Mrs. Ditka way back in 85 said me and my boss were holding her regular group up one afternoon. When we were greeted by the pro coming off the 18th green I fell on my sword taking full responsibility as my boss scurried to his car. I never played Pine Meadow again but I did get that promotion.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chattanooga 5... *Fonz jumping the shark*

The future of golf bunked up in the Birdhouse may never have heard of the Fonz. You simply can not discount a town with The Honors and Sweetens Cove. Chattanooga is the heart and soul of everything good in the game both past and future.

[Blake Conant]

I'm comfortable discounting two courses in Chat for Chicago, Boston, or Detroit.  Throw Brainerd in and maybe we've got a discussion, though. 

[Peter Flory]

When we were greeted by the pro coming off the 18th green I fell on my sword taking full responsibility as my boss scurried to his car. I never played Pine Meadow again but I did get that promotion.

Smart move!

[John Kavanaugh]

This thread brought Chicago Highlands and Paul Richards to mind. How are either or both doing?

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anyone know Brian LaBardi? He has played and reviewed most of the Chicago greats. It pays to read the rest of his reviews to put this beaut about Chicago Highlands in perspective.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/chicago-highlands

[David Wuthrich]

I would put Kohler in the Top 10

[Ian Mackenzie]

Jeff,


As a graduate engineer and avid golfer I lived in Chicago from 84-88 and didn't play a single course you mentioned. A tad exclusionary don't you think?

Sounds like you were not connected, that's all.
Or, did not have friends in the right places.


Exclusionary?


Is this really part of the equation now?
If so, NY falls out entirley and Chicago goes to top 5 with PHX and Myrtle Beach for God's sake...;-)

[John Kavanaugh]

I would put Kohler in the Top 10

I've never been there so this may not be fair. It's just not somewhere I would want to live.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would put Kohler in the Top 10

Yes, Kohler is in the Top 10 of the most expensive places to play overpriced resort golf on 4 courses. Maybe top 5...

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


As a graduate engineer and avid golfer I lived in Chicago from 84-88 and didn't play a single course you mentioned. A tad exclusionary don't you think?

Sounds like you were not connected, that's all.
Or, did not have friends in the right places.


Exclusionary?


Is this really part of the equation now?
If so, NY falls out entirley and Chicago goes to top 5 with PHX and Myrtle Beach for God's sake...;-)

Chicago was one hell of a place in 84-88. Too bad I had to give up my Bulls season tickets when I moved. Looking back I would have probably kept my tickets over the cost of joining a private club.

[PCCraig]

There is some really great golf in Chicago. But are more vastly overrated golf courses than great ones.

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