Difficult Courses

[Ira Fishman]

Most architects probably cringe at at thread like this.  The far majority design their courses for the majority of playing abilities (at least some golfing ability).  To each his own as far as what they like and don’t like but is it possible some here think the course is too hard because they are playing the wrong tees or they had a tough weather day?  Most of the courses mentioned have teeing areas that are 6000 or less yards long.  Are they still too difficult from these tees?


There is no question many of the courses are brutal from the tips but even take a course like The Ocean Course at Kiawah; you could play that course as short at 5300 yards from the forward tees.  If the course is still too tough from those distances can I suggest golf lessons or paddleball   


It is one thing if a course is boring and/or lacks character and is uninspiring (something less than a Doak 4) but most of the courses mentioned so far in this thread are architecturally significant (some of those mentioned are among the best in the world) and to say one wouldn’t play them again because they are too hard is mind boggling for me considering this is a site for golf architecture enthusiasts.  Those courses deserved to be studied a bit more than one time around from the wrong set of tees or on a challenging day.


I mean this in all due respect, playing the wrong set of tees can really impact ones view of a golf course but that might be grounds for a different thread.

I played all of the courses I listed from the Member tees or shorter. And Butler National and Congressional Blue are the only ones I would not seek out to play again. Btw, I have played Congressional several times. But thanks for the lecture.


Ira



Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

I’m not interested in playing Kiawah Island again because I had such a great day the one and only time I played it. It’s not possible to build on that great memory. And the dude who got me comped died.

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
It wasn’t meant to be a lecture but too many times I have seen people play courses I have worked on and they clearly played the wrong tees based on their comments.  I recently heard one golfer complain the course was way too short even though there was 800 yards of golf course that they could have played behind them.  Another complained that the course was far too hard but they tried to play the back tees.  Others said the course was to wet and the holes played too long.  This was after two inches of rain the night before 


Also some people are too hung up on their score.  I remember taking some friends to play Merion one time and the course was set up for match play (they let the native areas grow up much higher than normal).  Basically if you hit a ball in there you were lucky to find it let alone play it but in match play no worries, you just pick up move on and lose one hole.  They hated the course and said it was no fun    I have never taken them back and they don’t know what they are missing as the course is not always set up like that. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Playing the wrong set of tees wouldn’t be such an issue if so many courses didn’t lie about the actual yardage of the tees.

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,
It wasn’t meant to be a lecture but too many times I have seen people play courses I have worked on and they clearly played the wrong tees based on their comments.  I recently heard one golfer complain the course was way too short even though there was 800 yards of golf course that they could have played behind them.  Another complained that the course was far too hard but they tried to play the back tees.  Others said the course was to wet and the holes played too long.  This was after two inches of rain the night before 


Also some people are too hung up on their score.  I remember taking some friends to play Merion one time and the course was set up for match play (they let the native areas grow up much higher than normal).  Basically if you hit a ball in there you were lucky to find it let alone play it but in match play no worries, you just pick up move on and lose one hole.  They hated the course and said it was no fun    I have never taken them back and they don’t know what they are missing as the course is not always set up like that.

Mark,


I am sorry if I am not familiar with your work, but on which courses in this thread have you worked?


Thanks.

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
None so far as I have only had the privilege to work on a few of the best courses in the country/world which is why the current list so far is even more concerning in that people only want to play them once.  If you list all the courses stated they are some of the best of the best 😳


Just think if we had a thread with Easy Courses and listed those you would play or not play again if in the area (the reason not to play them again is because they were too easy).  I recall Davis Love one time talking about Pine Valley and I am paraphrasing but essentially saying how it was a great little course that really didn't require a driver, just long irons would be fine    He would probably still want to play it again (chip and putt courses are fun too) 

[JMEvensky]

Playing the wrong set of tees wouldn’t be such an issue if so many courses didn’t lie about the actual yardage of the tees.

You're not wrong.

[Tim Leahy]

Olympic Lake-yes
Spyglass-yes
Torrey South-yes but pretourny kikuyu rough is a b
PGA West stad-yes but never June thru Sept heat
Koolau-no not enough balls

[Chris_Blakely]

Most architects probably cringe at at thread like this.  The far majority design their courses for the majority of playing abilities (at least some golfing ability).  To each his own as far as what they like and don’t like but is it possible some here think the course is too hard because they are playing the wrong tees or they had a tough weather day?  Most of the courses mentioned have teeing areas that are 6000 or less yards long.  Are they still too difficult from these tees?


There is no question many of the courses are brutal from the tips but even take a course like The Ocean Course at Kiawah; you could play that course as short at 5300 yards from the forward tees.  If the course is still too tough from those distances can I suggest golf lessons or pickleball   


It is one thing if a course is boring and/or lacks character and is uninspiring (something less than a Doak 4) but most of the courses mentioned so far in this thread are architecturally significant (some of those mentioned are among the best in the world) and to say one wouldn’t play them again because they are too hard is mind boggling for me considering this is a site for golf architecture enthusiasts.  Those courses deserved to be studied a bit more than one time around from the wrong set of tees or on a challenging day.


I mean this in all due respect, playing the wrong set of tees can really impact ones view of a golf course but that might be grounds for a different thread.

Yes, if we make all of these difficult courses par 3 courses they become much much easier.  For example, with the two courses I listed The Shattuck and Wolf Run, if I played from the red tees it would have been much easier and much less enjoyable.  The Shattuck's red tees play at 4300 yards.  I guess everyone now will not have to worry about playing from their back tees as they are no longer maintained and the course plays at 6100 yards and not the 6700 when I played it.


The one thing that the two courses I listed had in common is that they lacked width and options.  They both forced the player to hit it here of else.  Furthermore, I did not play at the tips at both courses, but this still does not change that the courses really lack options.


I played Inverness right after the 2019 Junior Amateur and I felt that it had immensely more width and options than the two courses I listed as being very difficult.


Chris

[Mark Pearce]

Also some people are too hung up on their score.  I remember taking some friends to play Merion one time and the course was set up for match play (they let the native areas grow up much higher than normal).  Basically if you hit a ball in there you were lucky to find it let alone play it but in match play no worries, you just pick up move on and lose one hole.  They hated the course and said it was no fun    I have never taken them back and they don’t know what they are missing as the course is not always set up like that.

I don't care if I'm playing strokeplay, matchplay or any other weird variant of golf.  Rough grown up so deep that it's almost an automatic lost ball to go in it is just no fun.  Doing that deliberately is plain stupid.  I suspect your friends were right.

[John Kavanaugh]

Hitting a drive 30 yds right is not an option it is a consequence.

[Thomas Dai]

Also some people are too hung up on their score.  I remember taking some friends to play Merion one time and the course was set up for match play (they let the native areas grow up much higher than normal).  Basically if you hit a ball in there you were lucky to find it let alone play it but in match play no worries, you just pick up move on and lose one hole.  They hated the course and said it was no fun    I have never taken them back and they don’t know what they are missing as the course is not always set up like that.

I don't care if I'm playing strokeplay, matchplay or any other weird variant of golf.  Rough grown up so deep that it's almost an automatic lost ball to go in it is just no fun.  Doing that deliberately is plain stupid.  I suspect your friends were right.

Message for a signpost at the edge of the fairway - “The rough on this hole is sponsored by Titlesit*/Callaway*/Taylormade*/Ping*/Srixon*/etc*”
Atb


* add/delete as appropriate/inappropriate

[Bernie Bell]

"It is one thing if a course is boring and/or lacks character and is uninspiring (something less than a Doak 4) but most of the courses mentioned so far in this thread are architecturally significant (some of those mentioned are among the best in the world) and to say one wouldn’t play them again because they are too hard is mind boggling for me considering this is a site for golf architecture enthusiasts.  Those courses deserved to be studied a bit more than one time around from the wrong set of tees or on a challenging day."

Why?  Just because a course is conventionally viewed as "significant" or "worthy" doesn't mean it is fun.  If I had to pick up every ball I hit in the rough and move on to the next tee I might very well take up pickleball.  I've also played "worthy" courses to which I wouldn't return because the atmosphere was not to my liking. 

I guess I'm a bit of a contrarian on this thread, but I loved Carnoustie in intermittent rain under a dark, foreboding sky.  Nasty. Would love to play there again.

[Ira Fishman]

+1. Except for the pickle ball part--too much exertion. I played all of the courses I listed so perhaps one play is not sufficient to study them, but more than sufficient to decide if I want to play them again.


Ira

[David Ober]

Playing the wrong set of tees wouldn’t be such an issue if so many courses didn’t lie about the actual yardage of the tees.

What do you mean by this, John? Are you saying the actual permanent markers are incorrect on many courses (I have seen this, but rarely). Or that the place they put the tee markers for the day are all over the map (definitely true -- and on some courses, they place the "white" markers 300+ yards closer than the course is actually rated for the whites. So. So. stupid.

[Lou_Duran]

I’m not interested in playing Kiawah Island again because I had such a great day the one and only time I played it. It’s not possible to build on that great memory. And the dude who got me comped died.

I too have played it with Mike, badly I might add.  I don't care if I play the Ocean course again though I like it a lot and have played decently on it a couple of times.  I do wish I could play with Mike again- but for Wigler, I've typically tolerated Spartans more easily than Wolverines.


Mike Fine,


Though I agree with Mark Pearce regarding high rough which results in lost balls, you can take me to Merion any time and I promise that I will like it and won't bad mouth it.  Ditto for Pine Valley where I would hit a driver on every par 4, 5 and maybe one or two 3s.  Concur on golfers whining way too much when they actually have some recourse- choose the proper set of tees.


Bernie Bell,


My son and I were paired with two doctors from India living at that time in Philly at Carnoustie 15+ years ago.  It was a day as you described and the day tees, for some unknown reason, were set near tournament length.  We all struggled a bit, the doctors probably didn't break 120, my son and I barely got in south of 90.  We all had a great time, and both me and my son thought that Carnoustie was the best of the four courses on that short trip (revealing the name of two of the others would get me excommunicated from the site).


Fortunately, in many parts of the world we have options- short courses, long ones, tight, wide, difficult, less so.  Played Kiawah's Ocean course at the beginning of a trip last year, and with some weather coming in, got whacked pretty good.  Ended the trip at Cougar Point with a good golfer where I managed a double on 18 to shoot 80; my opponent shot 72 with a hip he had replaced a few months later.  Both rounds were highly enjoyable.

[Jeff Schley]

We all had a great time, and both me and my son thought that Carnoustie was the best of the four courses on that short trip (revealing the name of two of the others would get me excommunicated from the site).

Lou we may have to subpoena the scorecards before the house committee and get Robert Mueller to find out!
I'm guessing you had decent weather with no rain. I could guess the others but we are all curious as to the other 2.

[Lou_Duran]

Weather was as Bernie described, intermittent rain, 15-25 mph wind, not too cold, but often looking like we might get washed away.  The course was everything I expected and more.  North Berwick was our first, TOC with the daily tees at < 6200 yards our second.  Aberdour our fourth.  Alex loved North Berwick.  I thought it was fun but not of championship caliber.  We both felt about TOC like many first timers, and we were "temporary members" of the R & A, which was quite a privilege.  North Berwich has really grown on me in several plays since.  My second visit to TOC didn't stimulate my appreciation much, but I will go back some day I am sure- maybe it takes some of us without the proper perspective a few more times to "get it".

[Sean_A]

I found Carnoustie very difficult from tees near Champ length many years ago. There was no option to move forward. I wasn't enamoured, but I think the bunkering is outstanding.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I found Carnoustie very difficult from tees near Champ length many years ago. There was no option to move forward. I wasn't enamoured, but I think the bunkering is outstanding.

Ciao

Sean,


I first played Carnoustie back in '82 when it was a little ragged at the edges as were many of the classic courses. At that time it was much, much wider than it is now and so much better/fun to play even in a strong wind. The bunkering really stood out back then too.


Jon

[Bernie Bell]

I found Carnoustie very difficult from tees near Champ length many years ago. There was no option to move forward. I wasn't enamoured, but I think the bunkering is outstanding.

Ciao

I was enamored by the lack of charm.  Raw.  Elemental.  No pretense, on or off the course.  For my lone round, the rough was such that you could certainly find your ball and usually advance it. 

[Thomas Dai]

I first played Carnoustie back in '82 when it was a little ragged at the edges as were many of the classic courses. At that time it was much, much wider than it is now and so much better/fun to play even in a strong wind. The bunkering really stood out back then too.

I recall playing Carnoustie around the same time. Bit rough and raw around the edges but eminently playable as the width was appropriate for the usual weather and ground conditions and other than the occasional burn no forced carries. Think it cost me less than £10!
By the standards of the time however, it was long, so it took a few more shots to reach the greens than par-vrs-ego might have desired.
atb