Green Design and chipping while on green

[Kalen Braley]

I was watching the TPC on Thursday and noticed a hole where a player chipped while on the green.  While this does happen on Tour usually the player can putt it, but opts to chip due to it being tiered or a very long putt.  However in this case, the player had little choice as he would have had to putt thru both fringe and rough to get it anywhere near the hole location.

Assuming the shape/slope of the green and line of rough is as the architect intended, is this scenario poor design, poor setup, or perfectly fine?

P.S.  As a counter point, consider Riviera #6, where despite the bunker in the middle of the green, its my understanding its contoured in such a way you can almost always find a line to the hole. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think most supers and top players have concluded it is bad design, believing (for different reasons) that the 1 in a million need to chip on the green isn't worth whatever design value a boomerang (or whatever) green provides.  Every green I have ever done that has even a remote possibility of that happening has elicited at least one negative comment.


I believe Pete Dye used mostly round/oval greens with this being one of the reasons.  (The other, as mentioned in another post, is he liked how the rolling green edge looked, vs. always putting mounds on the inside points of a more complex shape)


That said, I simplify my "multi-lobed" greens enough to where you can at least putt to near any hole.  I am sure that somewhere, golfers have had to (or thought they had to) chip off one of those greens.


And, I have done a few with a slope paralleling the inside green shape to sort of set up an "Indy 500 banked turn" contour to allow putting around the corner.

[Alex Miller]

Jeff that's an interesting note about Mr. Dye. Now that I think about playing his courses, while the surrounds are often very difficult I never felt I was presented with an unfair shot while on the green.

As a player, greens which require a chip from anywhere on the surface to a common hole location irk me quite a bit. To me, it appears to be a lazy design as there are almost always ways to create a slope that allow for a ball to be putted from one part of the surface to another.


That being said... my favorite hole at my home course does not follow this rule. It's a short par 4 (330 yards) with an hour glass shape that does not let the player putt from the front part of the green to the back left portion (green is probably 45 yards in depth with only ~6 yards of width at the center). I've seen instances where this is an issue, but for holes which set up for a wedge or pitch shot approach, I think there's a valid exception to the rule, because you don't expect a player to miss their intended shot by such a margin with a wedge in hand.

[Jason Thurman]

Jeff that's an interesting note about Mr. Dye. Now that I think about playing his courses, while the surrounds are often very difficult I never felt I was presented with an unfair shot while on the green.

But then there's 6 at Whistling Straits, which may be the poster child for this type of conundrum. And to your last paragraph's point, it's a hole where your approach should be from a short enough distance that it's not too much to ask the player to hit the correct portion of the surface.


Generally, I think good design differentiates between players of different abilities, provides recovery options that are more easily unlocked by the more skilled player, and rewards good positioning. If that means leaving the possibility that a player could get so out of position, even while on the green, as to need to pitch the ball if they want a tap-in for their next shot, I think that's okay. In real life, I've only ever tried to chip from a green once (on 10 at Tobacco Road), so it's not like this is some architectural scourge. And I 3-putted twice just yesterday, so it's not like this game owes anybody a tap-in for every second putt.


Even for a very skilled player, pitching from a green involves taking some risk. A less skilled player might well find that taking their medicine, lagging a putt to 12 feet or so, and then trying to make the next one gets them down in 2 more often, and virtually eliminates the "4s or more" that the player who tries to pitch brings into play. How is that situation any different than any number of others that arise in the course of play, where the aggressive recovery player can take some risk to try something heroic while the more conservative player can mitigate risk by setting sights on the more reliable but less spectacular option?


Granted, my club's superintendent would probably disagree with me.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think 18 at WS would fall in that category.  My theory is, that after naming the course after San Fran's least favorite bar band, he figured he may as well break all the rules.

[Tom_Doak]

The only times I can recall seeing a Tour pro chip from on the green are Seve on the 7th green at Wentworth, and Gary Woodland on the 17th at Pebble Beach last year.


In a practice round for the Women's Open at Sebonack, I watched Stacy Lewis try to chip from the back right of the 16th green to the back left - there is a ridge that sticks into the back of the green that makes putts turn away abruptly.  After 2-3 unsuccessful tries, she just shrugged and decided she would have to be sure not to leave herself with that shot.

[Thomas Dai]

I recall Mark Calcavecchia using a wedge for his next shot after he hit his approach onto the ‘wrong’ part of one of the double-greens at TOC.
When asked why he replied along the lines of “I was 50 yds away from the pin. For me 50 yds is a wedge!”
Atb

[Jeffrey Conners]

Phil Mickelson chipped on the 15th green at Merion during the final round of the 2013 US Open.  The hole location was back right and he hit a poor wedge to the front right portion of the green.

[Niall C]

I saw it on one of the par 3 greens at Castle Stuart during the Scottish Open. Can't recall the player or indeed the hole number but it is the one where the green is L shaped with a bank at the inside of the dog-leg. I imagine it must be a reasonably frequent occurrence when the hole position is either far left or back right.


Niall

[Pete_Pittock]

     I think there is one instance at "my" golf course where chipping might be necessary, but it would require a very poor shot to get into that position, and a full lob wedge might be the best option.  The hole has a fronting bunker that intrudes about 8 yards past the beginning of the green, with a rounded ridge slope behind it which is another 5 yards deep. If your ball is on the first 15 yards of the green, and the hole is cut in the other front quadrant, there is no putt or chip shot that can get you within 20 feet
     The problem could be eased if the top of the face of the bunker was lowered by 2-3 feet and the mound eating into the green be eliminated. 
     Or you could not shank a full wedge and never have the experience.

[Peter Flory]

Players were chipping on one of the greens at Carnoustie in the last Open there as well. 

[Kalen Braley]

I wonder if these scenarios are occurring more frequently at Pro events as setup committees continue to push to the edges and corners of greens to create more difficult pin positions, given its bomb/wedge to even long par 4s these days.

My memory may be wrong, but I don't recall so many tucked pins on hole after hole in tournies 10+ years ago...

[Pete_Pittock]

The Old Course 15th hole, front pin. Quarter of a century ago. Approach into front bunker, with ball ending up next to revetted wall closest to the pin. Only play was away from hole and finished barely on the front edge. Only three putt of the day, which handed me the final snake.


Suggested corrections: none.


Usually it is your fault because of a poor shot, planning, etc.

[Kalen Braley]

Pete,

I hear what you're saying, but when one is playing to a difficult pin from 180 out, with wind and the elements, even a well thought out plan is difficult to execute for a top notch player, much less the average joe where its nothing more than hit and hope.

A secondary reason for starting this thread is what JVB explained to us a few weeks back in the divots thread:
"The feeling that the putting green is a special place where the ball is rolled on the ground has led to the loosening of that principle on the green.  Partly because the ruling bodies want to ensure that people on the putting green get similar conditions and partly because we want greens to be repaired."

If we go with the premise that greens are special places, and don't want them damaged (and have thier own rules), perhaps special attention should also be given with setup decisions like pin placement.  Once again I understand they are very uncommon occurrences, but the rule book is filled with decisions for all manner of even more rare situations.

[Mark_Fine]

I have seen it happen often including while at The Masters - Phil played a flop shot rather than putting on the 14th green to take all the contour out of play. 


I have actually encountered that situation many times on quite a few top courses.  It can happen with extreme hole locations and if you happen to get on the wrong side of the green.  To get your next shot close chipping becomes your better option.  I wouldn’t call it bad design.  The 9th green at Harbour Town is one example.  Oakmont has a few as do many other top courses.  My home club which is a Flynn design has a couple.  Again, putting remains an option in these extreme situations but not if you are trying to make the next shot.  The only way would be to get the ball in the air to start.

[Tal Oz]

The boomerang 13th at Rustic Canyon can create scenarios where you'll want to chip from the green, but even in this case I opted for a putt and used the feeder slopes to get the ball within 15'. If I was a foot farther left, flop shot would've been the only real way to get it on that level of the green.
https://twitter.com/talozz/status/1196688294651686913/photo/1
PS: One day I will learn how to post photos properly here

[Sean_A]

Tobacco Rd has at least two holes where higher cut grass interferes with a putting line. That's one too many for my liking. For the sake of variety I don't think it's bad design, but not a tool which should come out of the box too often.

I saw Phil chip on a green at TOC during the Open and he was booed. It was the obvious shot and he played it well, but y'all know how Scots can be.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The games' been snookered since the stymie was abandoned!
atb

[A.G._Crockett]

Tobacco Rd has at least two holes where higher cut grass interferes with a putting line. That's one too many for my liking. For the sake of variety I don't think it's bad design, but not a tool which should come out of the box too often.

I saw Phil chip on a green at TOC during the Open and he was booed. It was the obvious shot and he played it well, but y'all know how Scots can be.

Ciao

Sean,
At the risk of picking the nit, do you remember which two holes at TR you are referencing?  15 and 17 seem like possibilities, but in both cases you'd have to miss your line by miles to need to chip instead of putt.
I believe that one of the par threes at Tot Hill originally had three levels on the green and was in excess of 60 yards deep; the bottom level was converted to fringe because players on that level were hitting wedges to pins on the top level anyway.  I wish I was sure of the hole number, but that's a recollection from when the course in the earliest days.

[JohnVDB]

Phil Mickelson chipped on the 15th green at Merion during the final round of the 2013 US Open.  The hole location was back right and he hit a poor wedge to the front right portion of the green.

I remember him chipping on #9 at Riviera once also.

[Sean_A]

Tobacco Rd has at least two holes where higher cut grass interferes with a putting line. That's one too many for my liking. For the sake of variety I don't think it's bad design, but not a tool which should come out of the box too often.

I saw Phil chip on a green at TOC during the Open and he was booed. It was the obvious shot and he played it well, but y'all know how Scots can be.

Ciao

Sean,
At the risk of picking the nit, do you remember which two holes at TR you are referencing?  15 and 17 seem like possibilities, but in both cases you'd have to miss your line by miles to need to chip instead of putt.
I believe that one of the par threes at Tot Hill originally had three levels on the green and was in excess of 60 yards deep; the bottom level was converted to fringe because players on that level were hitting wedges to pins on the top level anyway.  I wish I was sure of the hole number, but that's a recollection from when the course in the earliest days.

I was trying to remember the holes as I was whacked twice in one round.  The 11th was definitely one of the holes.  My second was front right with a rear right hole location.  There was a wee shoulder blocking my line.  15 is definitely a green which is a prototype of the issue, but that wasn't one of the holes that got me...I think 17 was the other. I guess long, narrow greens can be susceptible to this problem and TR has a lot of those.  I like long, narrow greens, but for mine this is a weakness of TR...too much of that stuff.

Ciao 

[John Kavanaugh]

I have seen it happen often including while at The Masters - Phil played a flop shot rather than putting on the 14th green to take all the contour out of play. 


I have actually encountered that situation many times on quite a few top courses.  It can happen with extreme hole locations and if you happen to get on the wrong side of the green.  To get your next shot close chipping becomes your better option.  I wouldn’t call it bad design.  The 9th green at Harbour Town is one example.  Oakmont has a few as do many other top courses.  My home club which is a Flynn design has a couple.  Again, putting remains an option in these extreme situations but not if you are trying to make the next shot.  The only way would be to get the ball in the air to start.

Thanks for verifying the 9th at Harbour Town. I had that shot and decided I was far too close to the clubhouse to pull out the wedge. On a good note this shot is not uncommon on the Black at Streamsong. You just decide if it's green or not. I did hit the flop once and got up and down. Made a 30' putt.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tobacco Rd has at least two holes where higher cut grass interferes with a putting line. That's one too many for my liking. For the sake of variety I don't think it's bad design, but not a tool which should come out of the box too often.

I saw Phil chip on a green at TOC during the Open and he was booed. It was the obvious shot and he played it well, but y'all know how Scots can be.

Ciao

I'll have to pay attention to 11 the next time I'm at TR; I can't picture a line that would bring chipping into play.  But with all due respect, if you have to chip on 15 or 17, the problem is the previous shot; you are MILES out of position, and were either of those "normal" sized greens you'd be chipping or pitching anyway.  15 is effectively two greens with a narrow connection, and 17 is something like 90 yds. wide; I think in both cases, you'd have to miss your target by over 30 yards to the wide side of the green, and at a very particular distance to bring chipping into play as a better option.  I've hit some pretty dreadful shots into 15 and never had to chip from on the green; lots of chips, but not from on the green.
Sean,
At the risk of picking the nit, do you remember which two holes at TR you are referencing?  15 and 17 seem like possibilities, but in both cases you'd have to miss your line by miles to need to chip instead of putt.
I believe that one of the par threes at Tot Hill originally had three levels on the green and was in excess of 60 yards deep; the bottom level was converted to fringe because players on that level were hitting wedges to pins on the top level anyway.  I wish I was sure of the hole number, but that's a recollection from when the course in the earliest days.

I was trying to remember the holes as I was whacked twice in one round.  The 11th was definitely one of the holes.  My second was front right with a rear right hole location.  There was a wee shoulder blocking my line.  15 is definitely a green which is a prototype of the issue, but that wasn't one of the holes that got me...I think 17 was the other. I guess long, narrow greens can be susceptible to this problem and TR has a lot of those.  I like long, narrow greens, but for mine this is a weakness of TR...too much of that stuff.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

That's the point, if off the green there is a chance of chipping close. Making someone dogleg putt to hole is not a feature I think should happen too often. 15 is an odd hole. I recall not knowing where the hole was on my first play. I played to a part of the green I could see. It's not very clever to purposely remove the option of a wedge shot when that is clearly the play. But It's ok to have some whimsical features. I can imagine a lot of golfers not being able to access the left side of the green on the second without hitting an awesome shot. As I say, it's a very odd hole...maybe too much going on.

Ciao