[Lou_Duran]

The Ballyliffin thread got me to thinking again about past experiences where I played two courses close together geographically and time wise, and how the order of playing these might have affected my assessments of each.  Examples: Portstewart followed by R. Portrush, Wild Horse then Sand Hills, R. County Down/Ardglass, Bethpage Black/Wing Foot West.


I've only played 36 holes at Wild Horse, all on a single day.  The day after we played 36 holes at Sand Hills.  It quickly became among my favorite courses, but it didn't detract from my estimation of Wild Horse.


Years later, a guy whose gca opinions I value played the two in reverse order, SH then WH.  I was surprised with his muted opinion of WH and have wondered ever since if playing a great course ahead of a lesser one in a close time frame might tend to set the standards so high that we undeservedly write down the latter (the implications for the "rating game" might be subtle, but everything is relational and order/time/freshness may be another variable).  I am probably overthinking it.   

[David Wuthrich]

Lou, I think that it does for sure.  That is one of the things that I have to be very aware of when I am out playing and judge each course on its own merits.  I think that it is just human nature.

[John Kavanaugh]

Lou,


How could you forget Cypress then Olympic?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,


Not sure its the same, but when giving design presentations, it is said you should go first or last, lest being forgotten as part of the middle 2, 3 or 4 interviews.  I think it would matter more with more courses.


But maybe not.  I had one so-called "expert" in presentations explain it this way.


After Presentation no. 1 - leave ranked no. 1 unless you are a real screw up
After Presentation no. 2 - Either first ranked, or out of competition
After Presentation no. 3 - Either first ranked, or out of competition to survivor of 1 vs 2
After Presentation no. 4 - Either first ranked, or out of competition to survivor of 1/2  vs 3
After Presentation no. 5 - Either first ranked, or out of competition to survivor of 3 vs 4

The human brain probably tends to rank things, and in a 2 course scenario, either one could win on merit.

[Bernie Bell]

"have wondered ever since if playing a great course ahead of a lesser one in a close time frame might tend to set the standards so high that we undeservedly write down the latter"

I played Ardglass after RCD and had the opposite reaction.  "Greatness is overrated," I've heard it said.

[Tom_Doak]

"have wondered ever since if playing a great course ahead of a lesser one in a close time frame might tend to set the standards so high that we undeservedly write down the latter"

I played Ardglass after RCD and had the opposite reaction.  "Greatness is overrated," I've heard it said.

Well a good part of the issue here is expectations.  If you don't expect Ardglass to be nearly as good as RCD, you could be surprised to the upside, and realize you had just as much fun.


But if you are going to two or three supposedly GREAT courses, then of course you will rank them relatively.


When I was 19 I went to Philadelphia for the first time to play Pine Valley and Merion for the first time, in that order.  Merion wasn't a letdown, but it certainly wasn't Pine Valley.  And then I went over to walk Aronimink after playing Merion and thought it was worthless.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom, others -
in such back-to-backs, are we not 'identifying tastes' more than we are rating architecture/ranking courses? When I've played two courses one after another, I've tended to think in terms of 'liking' one more than the other, i.e. of 'realizing' that my tastes lean more in the direction of one than the other. It's only when I haven't played for a couple of weeks and then play a course for the first time that I tend to think in terms of the architecture/ratings -- and then, if I'm not playing another course for a while, my mind will eventually slot/rank that course in its spot relative to other courses I've played.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, others -
in such back-to-backs, are we not 'identifying tastes' more than we are rating architecture/ranking courses? When I've played two courses one after another, I've tended to think in terms of 'liking' one more than the other, i.e. of 'realizing' that my tastes lean more in the direction of one than the other. It's only when I haven't played for a couple of weeks and then play a course for the first time that I tend to think in terms of the architecture/ratings -- and then, if I'm not playing another course for a while, my mind will eventually slot/rank that course in its spot relative to other courses I've played.

Peter:


You could be right, it's different for different people I'm sure.


Generally I prefer to let a course sink in for a couple of weeks before I try to rate it.  That's harder if you are on a trip seeing a bunch of courses for the first time, because it's inevitable that you start comparing them, instead of taking each on its own merits.  I find that it is hard to like any of them a lot, or that I'll find one favorite and the rest are a couple of notches lower.

[Steve Lang]

   Well I played Belvedere last Friday and Antrim Dells Saturday for logistics only and it really wouldn't have made a difference, though there were some fun holes at the Dells. 


Belvedere's Willie Watson's recently restored 1923 classic design and its superb green complexes have grown in (compliments to the Super) blowing Jerry Matthews "classic" 1973 design out of the water....  no contest.


Perhaps playing Forest Dunes then The Loop might be letdown for some...  on first plays..

[Ira Fishman]

I had the opposite experiences on the same trip. We played Golspie, Brora, RD, Nairn, and Castle Stuart in that order. I know that Castle Stuart generally is ranked ahead of the others except for RD, but it was my least favorite by a big margin. I think probably it is because CS is too far away from my Platonic Ideal of a links course and certainly relative to the others. We then flew to London and played Swinley Forest, St George's Hill, and Woking. After the first two, I thought that Woking would suffer in comparison. Not in the least.


Ira

[MCirba]

I would generally agree, but possibly not in the way some folks may think.

For instance, I recall playing Pete Dye's Bulle Rock about a year after I had played Blackwolf Run and my impression was that I had seen it done better prior.

Also, I played Friar's Head after I played Sand Hills and although I loved the course, the strategies of the par fives were similar only the larger, bolder scale of the vastness of Sand Hills made the more constricted holes at FH seem a bit less impressive.

[Tim Martin]

Atlanta Athletic Club Highlands and then Rivermont. As cool as the history is and the Bobby Jones connection at AAC the golf course is too hard for me even from the set of baby tees I played. Rivermont on the other hand is a really fun play and was welcome respite.

[Kalen Braley]

I played Cypress Point as the first of 7 courses for the Monterey KP weekend many years back.

I don't feel like it diminished the other rounds that included the likes of MPCC Shore and Pasatiempo.

[Ira Fishman]

We played CPC right after we played Pasatiempo, and I do not think that CPC diminished my opinion of Pasatiempo in any way. Perhaps because the brilliance of the routing of each shines through even if Pasatiempo has a far less dramatic setting. In contrast, we played all four courses at Bandon on the same trip which clearly have some commonality in setting with CPC. I do think that CPC influenced my views of those courses even though I thought all terrific. I probably thought/think BT my favorite because it shares so much with CPC. And the fact that I preferred Pasatiempo to all of the courses at Bandon probably reflects the comparison of the Bandon courses to CPC.


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think TD is correct. It depends on expectations. I played Portrush Dunluce then the Valley Course. I wasn't expecting much and was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it. I played Portstewart the next day and was expecting great things but went away wanting more, especially from the backside.

[JHoulihan]

Also a factor is the total number of courses played in a short time span. My personal longest trips have been 6-7 days of golf. Some with 3 courses in 5 days and sometimes and others with 36 at different locations on the same day.


My personal opinion is based on my visit to Pinehurst NC. I played Dormie Club 36, Tobacco Road 27, PH #4, and PH #2. Should I have played #2 first, last, or in between? I played #2 last and still do not remember every hole well. Remembering holes 82 to 99 may be easy for some but not for me personally. No matter its history and prestige, I do think I would have remembered the individual holes better if it were earlier in the trip. It was still a great experience to finish the trip with a birdie on 16 and a par on 18 on #2.


Justin

[Dan_Callahan]

Order of play absolutely makes a difference.


I played Portsalon after playing Ballyliffin and Rosapenna. Had I played it first, I think I would have a much higher opinion of it.


The same thing happened at Connemara, which I played after Carne and Enniscrone. My immediate opinion was that it was uninspiring until the final few holes. Looking back months later, I started seeing more positives at both Portsalon and Connemara, and I’m eager to go back (Covid vaccine any day now, please) to see if my opinion changes.


In Scotland, I played Gullane right after North Berwick, and I think it suffered in comparison. On the other hand, I played Alwoodley before seeing any of the courses in Scotland, and it was immediately one of my favorite non-coastal layouts. If it had come at the end of my trip, I’m guessing my opinion wouldn’t be quite as glowing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

When I was 19 I went to Philadelphia for the first time to play Pine Valley and Merion for the first time, in that order.  Merion wasn't a letdown, but it certainly wasn't Pine Valley.  And then I went over to walk Aronimink after playing Merion and thought it was worthless.

I had the same experience when I played them in that order.  It was spring, and the Merion rough was so deep, perhaps because of the season, but maybe just for member play, and it seemed to me to uphold it's reputation as a championship course.  It was a great course, but no fun to play, and certainly not a match to the visuals of PV.  So, I ranked PV higher, but suspect that had I slogged through Merion first, and played PV later, my impressions would have been the same, maybe even more in favor of PV.

[Sean_A]

Sure, I think order of play can affect opinion at least short term. Taking photos really helps me sort things. That said, it no longer matters to me which course is best. I only really care about favourites so the order of play has much less impact.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

At a slight tangent there's how your thoughts on an individual course might alter when you tee off from the 10th rather than the 1st.
atb

[Carl Rogers]

Mid Pines vs Pine Needles ..... I don't think it would make a difference.
I like MP better only because I am partial to compact routings.
Don't care for PN hole no. 15.

[Tim Martin]

Mid Pines vs Pine Needles ..... I don't think it would make difference.
I like MP better only because I am partial to compact routings.
Don't care for PN hole no. 15.

Carl-I agree and would add Southern Pines to either or both with the same effect.

[Lou_Duran]

It doesn't appear that the order of play has much effect in one direction.  My thought was along the lines that a great course can set such a high standard that when a lesser course is played soon afterwards, it is more likely to disappoint.  And if this results in discounting the latter to the point where it is dismissed for future play, then we may be shortchanging it and ourselves (something to be very aware of if ratings are involved).

Re: the order of the routing- 1st vs 10th tee start- I am not sure how much attention golf architects pay to this sometimes common practice, whether they try to balance the starting holes or just go with what the site gives them.  There are some courses where starting on the back seems to change the feel and flow of the round.   And I've played some where it is rather easy to tell that management reversed the nines, often for easier logistics than improving the quality of play.

[John McCarthy]

At a slight tangent there's how your thoughts on an individual course might alter when you tee off from the 10th rather than the 1st.
atb

It is unfair but unless the course is a regular I feel a bit cheated going off ten.  Augusta flipped their nines, but I want the Sunday at The Masters I saw on tv, climbing the hill on 18 to finish. Every great course has it's own music which only makes sense in order.

[Bill Seitz]

We played Cougar Point down in Kiawah a few years and came away thinking it was really, really great.  In retrospect, that may be because we played Turtle Point just before, and that may arguably one of the worst golf courses I've ever played, so Cougar Point felt world class by comparison.  If we'd switched the order, I may have felt better about Turtle Point because I would have consumed more alcohol by that point.

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