One more look at 'Originality' -- and CBM

[Peter Pallotta]

Two of the main founders/creators of 'bop were pianist Thelonious Monk and alto saxophonist Charlie Parker. When the music emerged in the mid 1940s, on the heels of the the swing/big band era, critics used terms like "strikingly original" and "fiercely innovative" and "revolutionary" to describe it; and, whether they liked it or not, almost everyone agreed that it had "changed the face of music forever". And yet, here's what those two creative giants themselves said about this new music:

Monk: "I wasn't thinking about trying to change the course of jazz. I was just trying to play something that sounded good."

Parker: "Well let’s put it like this: I had no idea that it was all that much different. I've always thought music should be very clean, very precise, and more or less to the people -- something they could understand, something that was beautiful."

The only architect I can think of who *consciously* set out to 'change the face of gca forever' was Charles Blair Macdonald. Were there others, before or since?

[Jeff_Brauer]

But didn't CBM say, 100 years ago or more, no less, that there was nothing original in golf course design?

[Peter Pallotta]

JB -
of course, I probably should've written "change the face of gca in America". Either that or I'm wrong even to include *one* architect in the list of 'conscious originals.'  I don't know: it really is a question (though coming from a set pov).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Peter,


Well, nonetheless, he did provide an original look, by consciously copying the principles of the best holes (in his opinion) of the Old Country in the new country.  Was his originality an accident of choosing to work with civil engineer Seth Raynor?  Hey, maybe most originality is partly accidental, who knows.


Brings up a few questions.  Does originality vary by region?  Using your musical analogy, was Harrison original to bring elements of Indian music to western music?  Now of course, he would just be "culturally appropriating it."   


And, sticking with Beatle George, how much change constitutes something original?  Seems like when he got sued for My Sweet Lord sounding too much like "She's so Fine" there was some sort of standard, and it was small, like only 4% of the notes needed to be different to be considered original.


I agree with your musical examples, BTW.  I think many great bands had a few good albums, and then started thinking they had to writing something important, and crashed.  I doubt anyone ever came up with something great when they started out the creative process saying, "I'm going to come up with something great."  It just has to happen, usually by you trying your best and working hard, with a touch of luck thrown in.

[Ira Fishman]

Peter,


Monk and Parker may not have set out to change the course (no pun intended), but I bet they knew what they were doing when they played against tradition. Just as Miles knew what he was doing when he played off of be bop. And then for my taste at least, Coltrane and Coleman went too far. As for the analogy to golf course architecture:


Dye=Monk and Parker
C&C=Wynton Marsalis
Strantz (my experience is limited)=Late Davis


However, as is true for building architecture, the analogy to music has its limits given that golf course architects face more serious conditions and constraints.


Ira


PS CBM seems more like Sinatra doing wonderful covers.

[Niall C]

From what I've read CBM was playing the Great Amercian Scottish songbook. Can't really see too much originality there. Full marks though for analysing and identifying key design ideas and incorporating them into his own designs.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

From what I've read CBM was playing the Great Amercian Scottish songbook. Can't really see too much originality there. Full marks though for analysing and identifying key design ideas and incorporating them into his own designs.

But that was an original idea at the time.  I am not aware that Old Tom Morris tried to build a version of the Alps or Eden or Redan on any of his own designs.

[Sean_A]

From what I've read CBM was playing the Great Amercian Scottish songbook. Can't really see too much originality there. Full marks though for analysing and identifying key design ideas and incorporating them into his own designs.

But that was an original idea at the time.  I am not aware that Old Tom Morris tried to build a version of the Alps or Eden or Redan on any of his own designs.

Isn't Alps an OTM hole? That is my understanding of Prestwick. It would be interesting to see a list of OTM holes which remain and could be counted among the best/most iconic holes in Scotland.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Isn't Alps an OTM hole? That is my understanding of Prestwick. It would be interesting to see a list of OTM holes which remain and could be counted among the best/most iconic holes in Scotland.


Ciao

Yes it is.  I just meant he didn't copy that somewhere else, although he did build blind shots over hills here and there -- Tain for one.


Interesting that someone from St. Andrews would build a hole like that, actually.

[Mark_Fine]

I would beg to differ.  CBM without question "upgraded golf architecture in America", but his goal was not so much innovation but to help America catch up with their golf courses by utilizing the best ideas of what he saw on the other side of the pond. 

[Sven Nilsen]

CBM's contribution wasn't in borrowing holes from overseas, it was coming up with an ideal course.  One that demanded different shots to be played throughout the round.


The Eden by itself had been done before, but an Eden with a Redan and a Cape and an Alps, etc....


That was his genius.

[Sean_A]

Isn't Alps an OTM hole? That is my understanding of Prestwick. It would be interesting to see a list of OTM holes which remain and could be counted among the best/most iconic holes in Scotland.

Ciao

Yes it is.  I just meant he didn't copy that somewhere else, although he did build blind shots over hills here and there -- Tain for one.

Interesting that someone from St. Andrews would build a hole like that, actually.

I don't know of another OTM Alps, but then I haven't played an Alps quite like Prestwick's. The concept is brilliant. It's interesting that I am far less taken by Himalayas...a hole which came later and may have gone against current design theory.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Tom


I think at a distance of over a hundred years and with the ongoing course evolution that has gone on that it's very hard to say what exactly the old pro's built let alone what influenced them given they left little by way of a written record. However there is more than a suggestion in various courses that they re-used and borrowed certain ideas even if they didn't follow a strict template.


For instance, over the weekend I played 3 old courses, namely Killermont, Silloth and Kinghorn.


Firstly, Killermont which was Old Tom's last 18 hole course and was built in 1903. The 4th is a par 3 with more than a slight resemblance to the Redan in terms of angle of the green, blindness of the putting surface and the tilt of the green. Braid did some redesign work in the early 1920's but the green and tee position for the 4th is the same as in Old Tom's days. Did Braid redesign the hole or is it as Old Tom first laid it out ? Hard to say.


Silloth was laid out in the early 1890's. Again the 4th hole, as originally designed bears similarities with the Biarritz hole although I will qualify that by saying I've never seen the Biarritz hole and only going on description. The green complex at Silloth has a very (very) shallow trough between the front low section of the green and the back shelf with a steep drop off on either side, all of which bears a resemblance to the Biarritz green complex and also the Gate hole green at NB with NB being the common denominator. Silloth was designed by Davie Grant of NB and Biarritz by one of the Dunn's of NB.


Am I guilty of stretching things to make a point ? Possibly, but there is also the par 3 9th at Silloth which bears more than a passing resemblance to the Postage Stamp at Troon. Both are of a similar yardage, playing into the prevailing wind, with a drop off to the right and a higher bank to the left. Some may dispute the resemblance as Lynn Shackleford did at the Silloth BUDA but in contrast I'd cite a good friend of mine who has been a member at Troon for over 50 years who when stepping onto the 9th tee for the first time declared it the Postage Stamp without any prompting from me.


Finally there is the 18th at Kinghorn, a bonkers hole with a tee in front of a cliff face playing to a plateau area on top with a fairway and green. Somewhat similar I'd imagine to the now defunct Old Tom holes at Strathlene that played from what is now a caravan park up to a green on the upper plateau.


It's hard to prove any of conscious use of design template/ideas given Old Tom and the other pro's generally left no written record of their design ideas and I suspect given the limited means of construction that they had, that they tended to adapt ideas to suit the terrain more than perhaps later generations who had more fire power to play with. However surely it's harder to believe that they came up with a fresh idea for each every golf hole ?


Niall