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mike_malone

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Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2020, 05:36:22 PM »
14 at Augusta seems to be the most high profile, but I wonder if there is a real advantage to holding a drive up the left side.


The first at Hidden Creek does this pretty well. There is a distinct reward for holding the ball in the left side of the fairway while the terrain is trying to take it right...but over-cook it left and you're in the worst danger.


Huntingdon Valley has a couple, with #16 being a little too severe in my opinion...at least with today's firmness and fairway height. When the course is really playing well, it's near impossible to keep the ball in the fairway, although the low side first cut of rough is a good place to play the hole from.


Gulph Mills #10 is a victim of internal OB surrounding the driving range although the hole still works pretty well thanks to one of the coolest greens you'll see. Would be improved with a greatly expanded fairway out in the right bailout area.


#13 at Gulph Mills is a more subtle version of this (not really much of a dogleg) which rewards the learned advantage of approaching from the left side of the fairway as opposed to the instinctive/shorter right side.


Must be a Flynn thing—10 Lancaster, 18 Rolling Green.


Jim ,


I have always wondered about the trees left of 16.  Are they original?  If not then I think the hole would benefit by more space left.
AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2020, 06:11:38 PM »
Ralph Plummer seemed to do a few of those regularly here in DFW.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2020, 03:16:30 AM »
I certainly would not try and build one.


14 at Pebble has not been mentioned.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2020, 05:39:37 AM »
Surprised to read such an aversion to them on here from architects.


Can make for superb holes when done well. If you think about it, it can be readymade strategy to try and hug the difficult, high side of a dogleg to be rewarded with an angle.


They look good as well.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2020, 07:11:45 AM »
My 7th hole at JCB is an example of a modern reverse cambered hole and is working really well. 443 yards from the whites, modelled loosely on the 6th at Royal Melbourne West. The key is to 'just' carry the two bunkers on the inside of the dogleg. That way the ball will run out to the left half of the fairway and open up the angle into the green, which is heavily defended to an approach from the right side. Blow the drive too far over the bunkers and the ball will bound into the outside rough, bringing the cross bunker short of the green to the fore. Or, you can drive safely away from the fairway bunkers and have three to four more clubs in. The choice is yours.


Used sparingly and with enough space, they add to the palette needed to make the modern golfer think. For that, they are a good thing.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2020, 12:15:08 PM »
For a player who can't shape a shot I will hear the "unfair" word. Periodically, we should be called upon to learn to hit a shot that it out of our comfort zone.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2020, 07:22:02 AM »
Used sparingly and with enough space, they add to the palette needed to make the modern golfer think. For that, they are a good thing.



Robin:


What have you got short and right of the bunkers, to enforce the dogleg?  The hole at Royal Melbourne works so well because there's a huge swath of native stuff you do not want to be in, as on heathland courses in the UK . . . another situation where a reverse camber hole will work well.


I am trying to think of examples in my own work:


High Pointe:  13th was a very good reverse camber hole.  16th was a really severe one, and maybe my least favorite hole.


Pacific Dunes:  1st hole is kind of reverse camber, but you don't notice because you are hitting over a ridge, first.  8th is a good one, modeled after the 3rd at Woking, but the slopes are gentler.  The second shot on the 18th is reverse camber, too.


Cape Kidnappers:  none, it would have been very hard to make reverse camber work on ground like that.


Barnbougle:  3rd hole is an excellent one, though it's more double-decked away from you.  The tee shot on the 14th is one of my favorites.


Rock Creek:  11th hole is sort of reverse camber, although the fairway is along a ridge and there's a narrow bit on the left you can try to hit to avoid the right hand kick.




So, I guess I've built my share of them, I'm just wary of them until I'm sure they will be good ones.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2020, 07:51:39 AM »
Lots of woolly fescue and an 'Oakmont' style ditch short and right. It's nasty in there and a hack back to the fairway if you can find it. Acres of fair ground to the left for the safe play off the tee.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2020, 01:38:03 PM »
For a player who can't shape a shot I will hear the "unfair" word. Periodically, we should be called upon to learn to hit a shot that it out of our comfort zone.


Can someone enlighten me as to how this makes for a difficult shot? I don't get it.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2020, 02:41:46 PM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find the opposite to be true as a great defense: Fairway is right to left, GREEN is also right to left.



I always found the first few holes at Baltusrol Upper to be difficult because of that.  Then, once you finally get used to it, it ends and you're back to normal. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2020, 02:51:34 PM »
For a player who can't shape a shot I will hear the "unfair" word. Periodically, we should be called upon to learn to hit a shot that it out of our comfort zone.

Can someone enlighten me as to how this makes for a difficult shot? I don't get it.

It depends David,

For someone like me who can't hit a draw to save my life, a hole like Olympic #4 is basically impossible, especially with trees on the left side.

But if the hole was reverse cambered the other way, it'd be very pleasing to my eye with my left to right ball flight and would help to both find the fairway and have a far better chance of staying in it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2020, 03:03:45 PM »
Kalen,


You rarely if ever hit more than 5 greens in regulation. So I ask, who the hell cares?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2020, 08:45:48 PM »
Kalen,

You rarely if ever hit more than 5 greens in regulation. So I ask, who the hell cares?


John,


I was enlightening, but I know you don't care, and that's just fine!  ;)

Brad Steven

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2020, 10:05:47 PM »
For a player who can't shape a shot I will hear the "unfair" word. Periodically, we should be called upon to learn to hit a shot that it out of our comfort zone.
[/quote



Can someone enlighten me as to how this makes for a difficult shot? I don't get it.


A reverse camber, where the fairway slopes toward the outside of the dogleg will make it more difficult to hold the fairway as you try to shape your shot to the contour of the hole.  The ball will simply tend to run through the fairway.  So, to be sure to hold the fairway you have to try to shape the shot more running the risk of overdoing it and bring the trouble on the inside of the dogleg into play.  Hope this helps
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 10:07:18 PM by Brad Steven »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2020, 12:09:40 PM »
For a player who can't shape a shot I will hear the "unfair" word. Periodically, we should be called upon to learn to hit a shot that it out of our comfort zone.
[/quote



Can someone enlighten me as to how this makes for a difficult shot? I don't get it.


A reverse camber, where the fairway slopes toward the outside of the dogleg will make it more difficult to hold the fairway as you try to shape your shot to the contour of the hole.  The ball will simply tend to run through the fairway.  So, to be sure to hold the fairway you have to try to shape the shot more running the risk of overdoing it and bring the trouble on the inside of the dogleg into play.  Hope this helps


Ahhhhhh....


So we're talking about the tee shot ONLY? I read it as the GREEN sloping the opposite way, which is why I was confused.


Yes, reverse cambered tee shots can be very difficult. Though a short hole, the 17th at Spyglass uses that to great effect, IMHO. Or maybe I'm misremembering just how much it slopes the opposite of the dogleg...

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2020, 01:15:33 PM »
Something I hadn't thought about much until reading this thread is just how much the degree of a reverse camber can vary.


My first thought was that I hadn't played many reverse camber holes. But as I'm thinking about it, multiple holes at my home course could be considered at least mildly reverse-cambered.


Our 4th hole is a drivable dogleg-right uphill par 4, where the left half of the fairway falls away into a depression. A solid tee shot of 220+ yards has a good chance of finding the flatter portion of the fairway nearer the green, but the player who sends their ball left will get shunted off into the valley and out of position. Unfortunately, some trees on the inside of the dogleg make it very hard for a shorter hitter to get a clean shot from the uphill-but-uncambered right side of the fairway, although those same trees push a lot of bigger hitters out to the left and toward the depression they need to avoid.


Similarly, our 7th hole is a very uphill par 4 of about 320 yards. While it doesn't really dogleg, it does set up for a right-to-left tee shot. And again, a side slope also is strongly in play through the fairway. Balls hit to the left third off the tee will leave an uncambered stance (you're still hitting uphill, but the ball is level with your feet). The further right you go from the tee, the further you need to hit your tee shot to avoid getting shrugged off down to the right.


And our 15th hole is another par 4, around 400 yards. Again, it doesn't really have a pronounced dogleg but gently curves right-to-left. And again, the right side of the fairway falls off more suddenly and abruptly than the left side of the fairway. This is one of the holes where you're most likely to hear a playing partner call your shot a "good ball" right before it lands and bounces straight right into a spot that's totally out of position.


In each case, there's a dose of precision required of the tee shot. And in the example of hole 15, the little bit of reverse camber is an architectural unicorn - the rare feature that actually makes the hole tougher for the strong player to negotiate than for the weak player. It's the big hitters who can reach the portion of the fairway that's reverse-cambered, while the weaker player gets a wide, flat landing area in their driving zone, and even in the final 80 yards or so if they're laying up.


I also think reverse camber works really well on reachable par 5 holes. One of the first courses I ever played, Wild Turkey Trace in Lawrenceburg, KY, has a pretty cool par 5 for its 14th hole. Dogleg right, routed across a right-to-left slope. Reachable with a big drive, but it's a hard fairway to hit and hold, and everything about the second shot calls for a fade while you're hitting off a hook lie. It's a hole that absolutely works, and you can play it for about $15 if you walk.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Brad Steven

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2020, 01:27:53 PM »
Interesting stuff and of course the inverse is true in that a fairway cambered into the direction of the hole shape makes the tee shot much easier.  Those examples are easier to find ... I can think of a couple cape(ish) holes that reward an aggressive line off the tee by backstopping the tee shot with camber into the fairway.  Cool stuff.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reverse camber
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2020, 01:31:42 PM »
Brad, banked fw do make the tee shot a bit easier, and often, more visible, too.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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