Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)

[Tom_Doak]

Love/Cowley - Diamante #14 par 4

Can you describe that hole?  The course has changed a couple of times and I'm not sure this hole was even there when I played.

[Ruediger Meyer]

#2 Lofoten Links, Par 3 (Jeremy Turner)
#3 Föhr Blue, Par 4 (Christian Althaus)
#4 Barnbougle Dunes, Par 4 (Tom Doak)
#6 Kingsbarns, Par 4 (Kyle Phillips)
#7 Bandon Preserve, Par 3 (Bill Coore / Ben Crenshaw)
#11 Waterville, Par 5 (Eddy Hackett)
#16 Bandon Dunes, Par 4 (David McLay Kidd)
#17 Whistling Straits, Par 3 (Pete Dye)
#18 Castle Stuart, Par 5 (Gil Hanse)

[Tom_Doak]

#3 Föhr Blue, Par 4 (Christian Althaus)

The third at Fohr has a good ring to it 🤔

[Don Mahaffey]

Out


1^st Greywalls Par 5 - Devries
2^nd Sand Hills Par 4 – Coore/Crenshaw
3^rd Ventana Canyon Mountain Par 3 – Tom Fazio
4^th Tobacco Road Par 5 – Stranz
5^th Wine Valley Par 4 - Hixon
6^th Wolf Point  Par 3  - Nuzzo
7^th Ballyneal Par 4 - Doak
8^th Forrest Dunes Hilltop Par 3 – Johns/Rhebb
9^th Crosswater Par 4 - Cupp

[Ally Mcintosh]

OK I gave a few links holes earlier but I’m wondering what other European holes there might be?


In the UK, there must be decent non-links examples at Ardfin, JCB or one or two others. Or on the links side, trying to recall if Mach Dunes has an all-world hole.


In Europe, there have to be some all-world holes out there. I might mention the 7th at West Cliffs if I didn’t think 15 at Boston GC is a similar but maybe even better hole.


But we have Lofoten in Norway, a few really dramatic Icelandic courses, Sylt in Germany or Noordwijsk in Netherlands... Maybe a hole from Spogard, Pont or Althaus? I’m sure there are great holes out there on courses we don’t always talk about.

[Jeff Schley]

OK I gave a few links holes earlier but I’m wondering what other European holes there might be?


In the UK, there must be decent non-links examples at Ardfin, JCB or one or two others. Or on the links side, trying to recall if Mach Dunes has an all-world hole.


In Europe, there have to be some all-world holes out there. I might mention the 7th at West Cliffs if I didn’t think 15 at Boston GC is a similar but maybe even better hole.


But we have Lofoten in Norway, a few really dramatic Icelandic courses, Sylt in Germany or Noordwijsk in Netherlands... Maybe a hole from Spogard, Pont or Althaus? I’m sure there are great holes out there on courses we don’t always talk about.

I put down #12 at Kingsbarns the long par 5 around the ocean. Great hole and picturesque.

[Adam Lawrence]

#3 Föhr Blue, Par 4 (Christian Althaus)

The third at Fohr has a good ring to it 🤔

Very good course too, on a beautiful island. Not quite as good as Budersand, which is on the next island. But well worth playing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

[
Gotta say, though, I'm surprised that Ally is the only architect who participates here, who has nominated holes in this thread so far.

Gotta think too hard, and have to figure I would probably get raked over the coals for some of my selections, so figured it wasn't worth it.

[Ruediger Meyer]

#3 Föhr Blue, Par 4 (Christian Althaus)

The third at Fohr has a good ring to it 🤔

Very good course too, on a beautiful island. Not quite as good as Budersand, which is on the next island. But well worth playing.

Föhr suffers from two weak holes on each of their three 9 hole routings, I think 6 of the 27 haven't been redesigned yet. But to me the best 18 holes at Föhr beats everything in Germany barring Falkenstein.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Christian Althaus, who redesigned most of Foehr in two stages, is a very talented young man. I'd cite his seventh hole at Herzogswalde-Links near Dresden as one of the outstanding modern holes I've seen. It's a par three that, so far as I am aware, is totally unique. It is downhill, and the club website has it at 202 metres, though I'm almost sure it was longer when I saw it. To the left you can see fairway, but it stops at a bunker perhaps 150 metres away. To the right, all you can see is a large and imposing bunker. If you want to hit the green you have to hit over the bunker and trust to the architect. There is about 100 metres of fairway behind that bunker, but it is contoured so that the ball has a decent chance of running onto the green.

[Ira Fishman]

[
Gotta say, though, I'm surprised that Ally is the only architect who participates here, who has nominated holes in this thread so far.

Gotta think too hard, and have to figure I would probably get raked over the coals for some of my selections, so figured it wasn't worth it.

Jeff,


Always learn from your posts and value that you are willing to disagree with Doak, but this is a cop out.


Ira

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ira,


Maybe.  Brings up the related question of just what the regular posters here "owe" the board?  Well thought out posts every time?  No half baked opinions or glib asides?  Or, are we free to come and go as we please?  Is it wrong to occasionally throw in of a grenade and then exiting quickly? 


Mentally, I kind of fall in the middle ground.

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,


Maybe.  Brings up the related question of just what the regular posters here "owe" the board?  Well thought out posts every time?  No half baked opinions or glib asides?  Or, are we free to come and go as we please?  Is it wrong to occasionally throw in of a grenade and then exiting quickly? 


Mentally, I kind of fall in the middle ground.

You certainly do not "owe" the Board anything given your detailed postings and your willingness to challenge what has become the group think here. However, as it relates to speaking about other architects' work, I wish that you would be more forthcoming given your expertise and experience. I understand the reluctance--no way would I post about NFL players. But I work for them. You do not work for other architects.


Ira

[Simon Holt]

Hole 5: Casa de Campo, Dye
Hole 7: Sand Hills, C&C
Hole 9: Cape Wickham, DeVries/Oliver
Hole 11: Cabot Links, Whitman
Hole 12: Askernish, Irvine
Hole 13: Trump Aberdeen, Hawtree
Hole 15: South Cape Owners Club, Phillips
Hole 17: Ohoopee Match Club, Hanse


Hole 3: Tara Iti, Doak


For some reason formatting jumped on me.

[Adam Lawrence]

Hole 5: Casa de Campo, Dye
Hole 6: Tara Iti, Doak
Hole 7: Sand Hills, C&C
Hole 9: Cape Wickham, DeVries/Oliver
Hole 11: Cabot Links, Whitman
Hole 12: Askernish, Ebert et al
Hole 13: Trump Aberdeen, Hawtree
Hole 15: South Cape Owners Club, Phillips
Hole 17: Ohoopee Match Club, Hanse

Askernish 12, fwiw, is a Gordon Irvine hole. It wasn't on the original routing that we fixed in March 2006, but that had to be changed at the north end during the first winter, so Gordon added a few [size=78%]new holes to the south, including the par three eleventh and the twelfth.[/size]

[Simon Holt]

Edited along with my change of mind from 6 to 3 at TI.

[Niall C]

Interesting that no one has mentioned Loch Lomond unless I've missed it. There was a short reachable par 4 that I really liked which kind of similar top the par 3 plan Adam posted. The direct route (pronounced root) from tee to green is largely marsh while going down the fairway to the left requires the drive to be long enough to get by a fully mature tree. No idea what number it is.


Niall

[Simon Holt]

That is 14, Niall.  I think it's called Tom and Jay's chance.


I'd take the back-9 over the front-9 and it's views of the Loch 10 days out of 10.  12 is another good hole there and no bunkers from memory.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Love/Cowley - Diamante #14 par 4

Can you describe that hole?  The course has changed a couple of times and I'm not sure this hole was even there when I played.

Tom, I wanted to nominate a hole from Diamante Dunes and was thinking about a shortish par 4 that I recall headed out toward the ocean on the back nine.  I knew Paul Cowley had done some modifications since I'd been there, so I'll admit to guessing the number (based on memory and information online).  Further research yielded this information: [size=78%]http://dev.diamantecabosanlucas.com/cabo-golf-courses/dunes/[/size]


I believe it's (what is now) 15 that I'm thinking of.  An good par 4 leading out to the beach that Davis Love describes thus (in the hole-by-hole pdf):
"Possibly the truest links-style hole at Diamante, this is a short par 4 playing straight into the
prevailing wind. When the wind is up, this hole plays anything but short. A drive that drifts
to the right will leave a semi-blind second, while a drive down the left of center keeps the
green in view."
That info may be dated too I suppose.  I don't have my card from my visit.

[jeffwarne]

1. 2 Portsalon                                   Ruddy (do redos count?)
2. 3 Long Cove  3 shot par 5              Dye
3. 11 Atlantic short par 3                   Rees Jones 
4. 11 Waterville  short par 5               Eddy Hackett
5. 13 Ohoopee long par 3                   Hanse
6. 3 Tara Iti  long par 4                      Doak
7. 4 Cruit island-epic par 3                  Michael Doherty
8. 17 Cabot Cliffs                                Coore/crenshaw
9. 11 Muirfield Village strategic par 5   Nicklaus


3300ish yards of fun-par 36

[Tom_Doak]

Ira,


Maybe.  Brings up the related question of just what the regular posters here "owe" the board?  Well thought out posts every time?  No half baked opinions or glib asides?  Or, are we free to come and go as we please?  Is it wrong to occasionally throw in of a grenade and then exiting quickly? 


Mentally, I kind of fall in the middle ground.

You certainly do not "owe" the Board anything given your detailed postings and your willingness to challenge what has become the group think here. However, as it relates to speaking about other architects' work, I wish that you would be more forthcoming given your expertise and experience. I understand the reluctance--no way would I post about NFL players. But I work for them. You do not work for other architects.

Plus, this thread is entirely about holes we REALLY LIKE from other architects' work.  If you know so many architects that some will be bummed you didn't include one of their holes, they just need to get over that.  Or participate here! 

[Tom_Doak]

I think Christian Althaus, who redesigned most of Foehr in two stages, is a very talented young man. I'd cite his seventh hole at Herzogswalde-Links near Dresden as one of the outstanding modern holes I've seen. It's a par three that, so far as I am aware, is totally unique. It is downhill, and the club website has it at 202 metres, though I'm almost sure it was longer when I saw it. To the left you can see fairway, but it stops at a bunker perhaps 150 metres away. To the right, all you can see is a large and imposing bunker. If you want to hit the green you have to hit over the bunker and trust to the architect. There is about 100 metres of fairway behind that bunker, but it is contoured so that the ball has a decent chance of running onto the green.

That is very similar to the 3rd hole at MacGregor Links in upstate NY, by Devereux Emmet.  See The Confidential Guide vol. 3.


EDIT:  Also, you've seen as many modern courses as probably anyone here, you should probably have more than one nomination!

[Garland Bayley]

1. 16 Friar's Head medium par 4        Coore/Crenshaw
2. 3 Long Cove  3 shot par 5              Dye
3. 11 Atlantic short par 3                   Rees Jones 
4. 11 Waterville  short par 5               Eddy Hackett
5. 13 Ohoopee long par 3                   Hanse
6. 3 Tara Iti  long par 4                      Doak
7. 13 Tralee  heroic par 3                    Palmer
8. 17 The Bridge  short 4                    (not Rees-other than the green that suits the current hole pefectly)
9. 11 Muirfield Village strategic par 5   Nicklaus


3300ish yards of fun-par 36

You have 3 holes numbered 11, and two numbered 13. It seems you need to choose one 11th hole, one 13th hole, and 3 additional holes.

[jeffwarne]

1. 16 Friar's Head medium par 4        Coore/Crenshaw
2. 3 Long Cove  3 shot par 5              Dye
3. 11 Atlantic short par 3                   Rees Jones 
4. 11 Waterville  short par 5               Eddy Hackett
5. 13 Ohoopee long par 3                   Hanse
6. 3 Tara Iti  long par 4                      Doak
7. 13 Tralee  heroic par 3                    Palmer
8. 17 The Bridge  short 4                    (not Rees-other than the green that suits the current hole pefectly)
9. 11 Muirfield Village strategic par 5   Nicklaus


3300ish yards of fun-par 36

You have 3 holes numbered 11, and two numbered 13. It seems you need to choose one 11th hole, one 13th hole, and 3 additional holes.

Why?
(Tom Doak's original post)
"Guidelines:Each poster is allowed to nominate up to 9 holes.
Each hole you nominate must be by a different architect!"


and note Tom picked two holes numbered the same(actually twice), as did others.
and while you're at it, I also have two hole #3's

But to be clear, I also tried to pick 9 holes that complimented each other and put them in a certain sequence, so they may not be the "best"
9 individually, but I rather like the way they work together to form an interesting 9.

[Garland Bayley]

1. 16 Friar's Head medium par 4        Coore/Crenshaw
2. 3 Long Cove  3 shot par 5              Dye
3. 11 Atlantic short par 3                   Rees Jones 
4. 11 Waterville  short par 5               Eddy Hackett
5. 13 Ohoopee long par 3                   Hanse
6. 3 Tara Iti  long par 4                      Doak
7. 13 Tralee  heroic par 3                    Palmer
8. 17 The Bridge  short 4                    (not Rees-other than the green that suits the current hole pefectly)
9. 11 Muirfield Village strategic par 5   Nicklaus


3300ish yards of fun-par 36

You have 3 holes numbered 11, and two numbered 13. It seems you need to choose one 11th hole, one 13th hole, and 3 additional holes.

Why?
(Tom Doak's original post)
"Guidelines:Each poster is allowed to nominate up to 9 holes.
Each hole you nominate must be by a different architect!"


and note Tom picked two holes numbered the same(actually twice), as did others.
and while you're at it, I also have two hole #3's

But to be clear, I also tried to pick 9 holes that complimented each other and put them in a certain sequence, so they may not be the "best"
9 individually, but I rather like the way they work together to form an interesting 9.

He prefaced his post with reference to eclectic and difficulty. I mistakenly assumed we were to conform.