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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #150 on: August 05, 2020, 12:47:09 PM »
There are countless eclectic course threads here, but I could not find one for modern courses, allowing more than one hole per architect.  Perhaps a bit easier to decide on, but still one I would be more interested in seeing.


Here's a shot at one:  nine holes by Coore & Crenshaw, nine by me, but eighteen different courses.  Feel free to substitute as you wish.


1 - 4 - Cuscowilla
2 - 5 - Talking Stick (North)
3 - 4 - Tara Iti
4 - 4 - The Loop (Black)
5 - 3 - Streamsong (Blue)
6 - 4 - Pacific Dunes
7 - 5 - Streamsong (Red)
8 - 4 - The Renaissance Club
9 - 4 - Trinity Forest


10- 5 - Rock Creek
11- 4 - Bandon Trails
12- 4 - Ballyneal
13- 3 - Barnbougle Dunes
14- 5 - Sand Hills
15- 4 - Friars Head
16- 3 - Cabot Cliffs
17- 4 - Dismal River
18- 5 - Kapalua (Plantation)


Most of these were nominated in the voting for this thread, though I had to throw out the consensus favorite from Barnbougle, Ballyneal and Bandon Trails to make it work as there were not many nominations for holes 11, 12 and 13. 


This is par-74 with five par-5's and only three par-3's -- we did not have many par-3's nominated although I believe we have built some good ones between us.  I just didn't try too hard to make it par 71 or 72.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #151 on: August 05, 2020, 01:13:41 PM »
Wolf Point Hole 3 is an easy swap to make IMO


Agreed! This is one of my 3 favorite holes at Wolf Point.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #152 on: August 05, 2020, 01:33:29 PM »
There are countless eclectic course threads here, but I could not find one for modern courses, allowing more than one hole per architect.  Perhaps a bit easier to decide on, but still one I would be more interested in seeing.


Here's a shot at one:  nine holes by Coore & Crenshaw, nine by me, but eighteen different courses.  Feel free to substitute as you wish.


1 - 4 - Cuscowilla
2 - 5 - Talking Stick (North)
3 - 4 - Tara Iti
4 - 4 - The Loop (Black)
5 - 3 - Streamsong (Blue)
6 - 4 - Pacific Dunes
7 - 5 - Streamsong (Red)
8 - 4 - The Renaissance Club
9 - 4 - Trinity Forest


10- 5 - Rock Creek
11- 4 - Bandon Trails
12- 4 - Ballyneal
13- 3 - Barnbougle Dunes
14- 5 - Sand Hills
15- 4 - Friars Head
16- 3 - Cabot Cliffs
17- 4 - Dismal River
18- 5 - Kapalua (Plantation)


Most of these were nominated in the voting for this thread, though I had to throw out the consensus favorite from Barnbougle, Ballyneal and Bandon Trails to make it work as there were not many nominations for holes 11, 12 and 13. 


This is par-74 with five par-5's and only three par-3's -- we did not have many par-3's nominated although I believe we have built some good ones between us.  I just didn't try too hard to make it par 71 or 72.


It is my sad lot in life that I have not played enough C&C or Doak courses to find a way to suggest putting Old Mac 7 in the routing.


Ira

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #153 on: August 05, 2020, 01:39:54 PM »
During the regrassing of Streamsong 7 is the green being softened so putts from the top shelf down remain on the green?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #154 on: August 05, 2020, 01:43:41 PM »

It is my sad lot in life that I have not played enough C&C or Doak courses to find a way to suggest putting Old Mac 7 in the routing.

Ira


Honestly, that's not even in my top five seventh holes!  Besides Ballyneal and Barnbougle, I'd rather have the 7th at Pacific Dunes, but they are going to fill other gaps. 


And I do think the 7th at Streamsong (Red) is the best hole on that course . . . which is why I printed a diagram of it in Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide.


Even with nine courses from me and nine from Bill and Ben, there were a lot of good holes left on the cutting room floor.  No room for the 4th at Tumble Creek, the 11th at Lost Dunes, or something from Old Mac or Sebonack on my side of the ledger; and nothing from Lost Farm or Austin Golf Club or Old Sandwich on Bill and Ben's side.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #155 on: August 05, 2020, 01:45:40 PM »
During the regrassing of Streamsong 7 is the green being softened so putts from the top shelf down remain on the green?


Are you talking about the Blue course, and not the Red course hole discussed here?


I did suggest they soften that green a bit, but my understanding was they didn't want to change it.  Kyle Harris would know for sure.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #156 on: August 05, 2020, 01:47:34 PM »
I am talking about the blue. Damn.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #157 on: August 06, 2020, 09:43:40 AM »
There are countless eclectic course threads here, but I could not find one for modern courses, allowing more than one hole per architect.  Perhaps a bit easier to decide on, but still one I would be more interested in seeing.


Here's a shot at one:  nine holes by Coore & Crenshaw, nine by me, but eighteen different courses.  Feel free to substitute as you wish.


1 - 4 - Cuscowilla
2 - 5 - Talking Stick (North)
3 - 4 - Tara Iti
4 - 4 - The Loop (Black)
5 - 3 - Streamsong (Blue)
6 - 4 - Pacific Dunes
7 - 5 - Streamsong (Red)
8 - 4 - The Renaissance Club
9 - 4 - Trinity Forest


10- 5 - Rock Creek
11- 4 - Bandon Trails
12- 4 - Ballyneal
13- 3 - Barnbougle Dunes
14- 5 - Sand Hills
15- 4 - Friars Head
16- 3 - Cabot Cliffs
17- 4 - Dismal River
18- 5 - Kapalua (Plantation)


Most of these were nominated in the voting for this thread, though I had to throw out the consensus favorite from Barnbougle, Ballyneal and Bandon Trails to make it work as there were not many nominations for holes 11, 12 and 13. 


This is par-74 with five par-5's and only three par-3's -- we did not have many par-3's nominated although I believe we have built some good ones between us.  I just didn't try too hard to make it par 71 or 72.

How about par 3 10th from Friars Head and use par 4 15th from Rock Creek? Love both of those holes. Would get it to a par 73.
Mr Hurricane

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #158 on: August 06, 2020, 09:55:52 AM »
The 10th at Friars Head is grossly under-appreciated.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #159 on: August 06, 2020, 09:58:44 AM »
The 10th at Friars Head is grossly under-appreciated.


As much as the first at Cuscowilla? What is up with that choice?

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #160 on: August 06, 2020, 10:18:57 AM »
Te first at Cuscowilla is one of the best opening holes in golf. 


Cuscowilla is a grossly under-appreciated golf course.  Even here in the C&C echo chamber. 




John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #161 on: August 06, 2020, 10:42:27 AM »
Te first at Cuscowilla is one of the best opening holes in golf. 


Cuscowilla is a grossly under-appreciated golf course.  Even here in the C&C echo chamber.


More proof that sometimes playing a course forms an incorrect opinion. I just couldn't get around the plastic barriers around the greens. Wouldn't be surprised if that issue has been fixed.


I also was shocked, disappointed and appalled at the slow play of the GCA outing. Bad mood city.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #162 on: August 06, 2020, 11:40:46 AM »
and nothing from Lost Farm or Austin Golf Club or Old Sandwich on Bill and Ben's side.
That should speak to their quality.  I really enjoyed LF immensely and strong par 3's. I love hole 4 at the tip of the property and very exposed to wind. My entire group got taken like kites in wind and 30-40 yards left and short. Needed a punch flow ball flight there. Also love hole 3 a masterful short par 4 with a wicked bunker in front and playing uphill to a green with slope.
For Austin GC I like hole 18, a long par 4 playing into the wind to an elevated green, but a nice backstop which I don't think is common for C&C holes.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #163 on: August 06, 2020, 11:48:14 AM »
Been thinking about this. Slowly.


JCB 18th -- Robin Hiseman.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #164 on: August 06, 2020, 11:52:50 AM »
This is the 2nd time an inferior Nicklaus hole has beat out one from Wolf Point.

I guess I shouldn't have voted for the 6th at Pacific Dunes or I should have visited Ballyneal at some point.
I almost voted for the 4th at Barnbougle so I could vote for Wolf Point #6 but couldn't because of how much I liked Pacific Dunes' 6th.
Peace


How many folks have actually seen or played WP?  Ballpark %?  This may hinder peoples ability to critique it or vote for it if few have seen it.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #165 on: August 06, 2020, 12:15:44 PM »
Alands Golfklubb, New Castle course, ninth: Philip Spogard
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #166 on: August 06, 2020, 12:18:58 PM »
West Cliffs, Portugal, seventh hole: Cynthia Dye
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #167 on: August 06, 2020, 12:20:03 PM »
Askernish, seventh hole: Ebert, Irvine, Haspell and (a bit) Lawrence, plus later work by Eric Iverson.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #168 on: August 06, 2020, 01:53:50 PM »
Te first at Cuscowilla is one of the best opening holes in golf. 


Cuscowilla is a grossly under-appreciated golf course.  Even here in the C&C echo chamber.


More proof that sometimes playing a course forms an incorrect opinion. I just couldn't get around the plastic barriers around the greens. Wouldn't be surprised if that issue has been fixed.


I also was shocked, disappointed and appalled at the slow play of the GCA outing. Bad mood city.


It would be interesting to know how many rounds people have on the holes they nominated.  In my case, I have played Cuscowilla numerous times and not once in conjunction with a GCA Star Trek convention. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #169 on: August 06, 2020, 02:07:46 PM »
So that’s not where we met. The years melt together between moonshine and Churchill.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #170 on: August 06, 2020, 09:47:04 PM »
Askernish, seventh hole: Ebert, Irvine, Haspell and (a bit) Lawrence, plus later work by Eric Iverson.


Ithought that was Old Tom Morris and all you guys were just the medium.  Has the story officially changed?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #171 on: August 07, 2020, 04:19:52 AM »
Askernish, seventh hole: Ebert, Irvine, Haspell and (a bit) Lawrence, plus later work by Eric Iverson.

Ithought that was Old Tom Morris and all you guys were just the medium.  Has the story officially changed?


I can't be held responsible for what others say
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #172 on: August 07, 2020, 07:28:00 AM »
Askernish, seventh hole: Ebert, Irvine, Haspell and (a bit) Lawrence, plus later work by Eric Iverson.

Ithought that was Old Tom Morris and all you guys were just the medium.  Has the story officially changed?


I can't be held responsible for what others say


WTF?  Aren't you the one who wrote the story to begin with?

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #173 on: August 08, 2020, 01:16:27 AM »
What a great track. I can see my picks it seems were garden variety and matched with popularity.
I don't see a Pete Dye hole on there?  We got to have Pete.  What is his best 10th hole?
EDIT:
ORWhat is Gil Hanse's best 10th hole and give Pete 17th either TPC Sawgrass or Whistling Straits.
On the European thread I nominated Hanse's 10th at Crail Craighead.  Brilliant driveable par 4.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)
« Reply #174 on: August 08, 2020, 02:09:18 AM »
What a great track. I can see my picks it seems were garden variety and matched with popularity.
I don't see a Pete Dye hole on there?  We got to have Pete.  What is his best 10th hole?
EDIT:
ORWhat is Gil Hanse's best 10th hole and give Pete 17th either TPC Sawgrass or Whistling Straits.
On the European thread I nominated Hanse's 10th at Crail Craighead.  Brilliant driveable par 4.

And, since Mark and I agree on everything,  I to nominated 10 at Crail Craighead.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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