News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2020, 03:27:58 PM »
I think the 16th at Cypress Point is a great hole because it takes you exactly where your eye wants to go.


I also think it's a great idea to have a long par-3 which you either go for, or have to lay up.  The 6th at West Sussex is another such hole.  However, without a fine setting, that is a controversial idea that a lot of golfers do not like.


But, of course, its appeal has a lot to do with the setting.  There are a lot of holes along ponds that aren't much different in plan view than the 18th at Pebble Beach, and they do not get nearly the same amount of attention.  Likewise, when I was doing the plan of the Stadium Course at PGA West, the par-3 6th there is based on the 16th at Cypress Point - but with ponds - and it does not exactly engender the same kind of affection.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2020, 03:31:00 PM »
Explain to me why I didn't. Each of them had a forced carry over an inescapable hazard. Each of them had a lay-up area off to the side (I think...they might have been more penal.) The only difference was, I wasn't staring into eternity.


I could play the 1st hole at Alondra Park and pretend I'm playing a hole "like" the 18th at TOC. That doesn't make it so.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2020, 03:32:19 PM »
CP has a 15th hole for those who can’t make the carry direct to the green on the 16th.  You can try to make your par or birdie there so you feel better about losing a ball or two or three going for the 16th  ;D


Note: I have never had anyone tell me playing CP was not one of their greatest experiences in their golfing careers.  15/16 and 17 as well are the climax of a very special round of golf. 

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2020, 03:38:31 PM »
CP has a 15th hole for those who can’t make the carry direct to the green on the 16th.  You can try to make your par or birdie there so you feel better about losing a ball or two or three going for the 16th  ;D


Note: I have never had anyone tell me playing CP was not one of their greatest experiences in their golfing careers.  15/16 and 17 as well are the climax of a very special round of golf.


It is the only private course (so far) that I went on a quest to play. One of our former NFL players had a friend whose Mother in Law is a member at CPC. We had probably four months of emails, and we did not receive confirmation of our game until we were in California. It was way more worth the effort.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2020, 03:40:08 PM »
Ron,

Go to the 8 minute mark in this drone footage, and make sure to press mute so Nantz's "droning" doesn't spoil the visual delights.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/cypress-point-like-youve-never-seen-it-exclusive-drone-footage-of-all-18-holes

The only thing better is seeing it in person.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2020, 04:09:42 PM »
...  Likewise, when I was doing the plan of the Stadium Course at PGA West, the par-3 6th there is based on the 16th at Cypress Point - but with ponds - and it does not exactly engender the same kind of affection.

Good luck playing that one with a putter! ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2020, 04:22:05 PM »
Let me pose this question: Where do you rank the putting surface of #16 for interest, variety of hole locations, and quirk? Is it top-five on the course? six through ten? eleven through fifteen? or, bottom three?



Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2020, 04:28:35 PM »
Let me pose this question: Where do you rank the putting surface of #16 for interest, variety of hole locations, and quirk? Is it top-five on the course? six through ten? eleven through fifteen? or, bottom three?


Near the bottom, but that would usually be the case for a 230-yard par-3.  Golfers have no stomach for tough green contours if they have successfully hit a very long approach shot.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2020, 04:45:52 PM »
Can they be interesting, without being difficult? Not asking for the E green here, or even the CPC 15th hole green.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2020, 05:08:45 PM »
Hitting my driver onto the 16th hole at CPC is one my most special golf memories. I thought about that shot from the first hole. I played with two of my best friends. Two of us went for the green while the third laid up. Not many par threes have that option. It is heroic, visually stunning, and exciting. Turning the corner from the fifteenth green is one of the great experiences in all of golf. Is it a great hole? Absolutely. There are copies at Mauna Kea and Mauna Lana, to name two but they just don't  have the same pizazz.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2020, 05:53:35 PM »
Let me pose this question: Where do you rank the putting surface of #16 for interest, variety of hole locations, and quirk? Is it top-five on the course? six through ten? eleven through fifteen? or, bottom three?


Near the bottom, but that would usually be the case for a 230-yard par-3.  Golfers have no stomach for tough green contours if they have successfully hit a very long approach shot.


Yes, the paradox (and general rule) of proportionality.  Hard approach, easier putt as a reward.  You do follow design formulas! :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2020, 07:10:21 PM »
Ronald,
Tom is right that green is probably is near the bottom in terms of contour but frankly there is so much going on besides the green surface, who really cares.  It could be flat artificial turf and most wouldn’t care or notice.  I am spoiled as I get to play there a lot so I am learning more about the green surface but honestly it doesn’t really matter.  When you stand on that tee with a golf club in your hand you are as close to being in heaven on this planet as you can get.  And if you happen to make a great shot and hit one on the green or find a way to make a three you will have a memory for a long time. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2020, 07:33:33 PM »

Near the bottom, but that would usually be the case for a 230-yard par-3.  Golfers have no stomach for tough green contours if they have successfully hit a very long approach shot.

Yes, the paradox (and general rule) of proportionality.  Hard approach, easier putt as a reward.  You do follow design formulas! :D


Not really, I just understand them.  But I don't build very many long par-3's because so many people insist they have to be boring.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2020, 09:32:12 PM »
Tom,
I know you agree that not every green needs to be like #16 at North Berwick to be interesting nor does every long par three need a flat green with zero contour.  Flynn for example was known for almost always building at least one long par three in each of his designs and I wouldn’t call any of those holes as well as the greens that go with them flat or boring.


The 16th green at CP seems well designed from my viewpoint.  I think Mackenzie was smart enough to use restraint as he realized the star of the show was the setting and the heroic carry across the Pacific Ocean.  He didn’t need to go crazy with green contours as it only would have competed with everything else going on with the golf hole.  If there is such a think as a 10 for a golf hole, this is one of them. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2020, 09:48:04 PM »
"Cypress Point is having a membership drive. Last year they drove out 100 members."
Bob Hope

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2020, 10:17:04 PM »
"There's no relief on the 16th. The only place to take a drop is Honolulu." 
Jimmy Demaret.




Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2020, 01:34:50 AM »
Ron, separating the setting from the golf hole is a fools errand, but here are some reasons I think the 16th is great aside from the scenery:

1. It has multiple options for playing the hole, which has been mentioned in this thread a few times
2. It provides variety from any of the other par 3's
3. It's 60y longer than 7, the next longest par 3

4. The water is more in play than any previous hole
5. A near polar opposite shot is required from the short 15th
6. While the green is likely the least contoured, it is also the largest on the course (I think) and provides a catchers mitt for a driver/3w/hybrid approach.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2020, 02:30:45 AM »
Some pics for reference

Tee shot to green (direct)


Tee shot to layup area


Approach


View from behind the green

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2020, 03:05:04 AM »





This is very pertinent to the recent thread on back bunkers.


Mackenzie clearly designed those bunkers for no other reason than aesthetic impact. I can't imagine them ever actually being in play, but they complete the picture of possibly the most photographed hole in world golf.


Argue all you like about whether MacKenzie or Raynor was responsible for routing Cypress Point. There's no way Raynor would have put those bunkers in.


The hole would have been a much lesser one as a result, despite the fabulous setting.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 03:07:56 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2020, 03:42:15 AM »






Splendid photos.
Anyone know when the reinforcement wall short-right of the green was built? Presumably an erosion issue was occurring?
Atb

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2020, 03:45:29 AM »
Also, anyone know when they planted the replacement Cypress? I’d assume fairly recently given the guying is still in place?

The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2020, 03:51:52 AM »
Also, ehm, also. Is that a bench or something up there at Boney’s Pulpit? Really offends my eye, breaking up the horizon line like that.
F.


PS Scratch that. Just checked my photos and it was there back then. Just not quite so visible!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 03:58:36 AM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2020, 09:24:19 AM »


"Cypress Point is having a membership drive. Last year they drove out 100 members."

Bob Hope




You'll be here all week?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2020, 09:36:04 AM »

Splendid photos.
Anyone know when the reinforcement wall short-right of the green was built? Presumably an erosion issue was occurring?
Atb


Yes, there has been some erosion ... this picture cuts it out, but before the golf course was built, there was a little loop road going out past the green to the little headland beyond and right.  They would not be able to restore that today as that bit was cut off from the mainland by the ocean and is now an island 😮

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2020, 10:46:06 AM »

Near the bottom, but that would usually be the case for a 230-yard par-3.  Golfers have no stomach for tough green contours if they have successfully hit a very long approach shot.

Yes, the paradox (and general rule) of proportionality.  Hard approach, easier putt as a reward.  You do follow design formulas! :D


Not really, I just understand them.  But I don't build very many long par-3's because so many people insist they have to be boring.


Cross pollinating the Whitten thread again, but it reminds me that when I worked golf maintenance, a golfer and my boss both insisted no public golfer wanted a par 3 over 200 yards.  Yeah, a challenge, but not a fun one, and not the breather hole most golfers want a par 3 to be.  So, at least from the middle tees, I never designed one over 180 yards, and even that seems long to most players, so 170 is a good max for them.


Around 1994, one of my better designs narrowly missed being on the GD (recently expanded) top ten new upscale public course list.  Not quite relevant, but it had made top 3 on the affordable public list, but when GD called to tell them the good news, they said they were going to raise rates from $45 to $75 the next day, and GD changed their category, where they failed to place.


Ron used to send out raters comments, and one that struck me was how many raters downgraded the course because of "similar length par 3 holes."  Length variety was a criteria, either for them or within the system, but mostly because most raters are low handicap players, I guess.  Or, just as those who tally up variety of wind directions for all par 3 and also par 5 holes, it was a rating thing.  Predictably, I started stretching out one par 3 to 260 yards back tee, down to 130 yards, preferably on the same nine and a few holes apart to stress just how different those two par three holes were.  And, some people did notice.  Over the last ten years, perhaps spurred on by moving to the senior golfer class, I have started going back to the all par 3 holes being easily reached mantra.  Of course, the gca mantra got to be that the long par 3 is the only way left to challenge long iron play by top players, so they became more acceptable, (as long as the mid tee was still around 170, rather than a proportional distance reduction, LOL)


But yes, most sort of mentally calculate that if they hit a great shot to reach a 225 yard green, the putt ought to be fairly easy as a reward, or an architectural technique to make par extremely likely or at least possible after a good shot.  We lament it, but par matters to most golfers, and it is very frustrating to them to not make par after a good shot.  And, where is the strategy of hitting a great shot just to find wild contours require another great one to possibly avoid bogey?


If nothing else, CP 16 probably proves that average golfers really hate long par 3 holes, carries at the limit of their ability (not much room to add forward tees there!) but will certainly accept it if there are other benefits, like stunning beauty.  And, as a few examples here show, Mac said that man's attempts to emulate nature always seem "puny."  He had to be thinking of an inland pond par 3 hole vs. CP 16 when he wrote that, IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach