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V. Kmetz

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For all the fine books and media articles I've taken in, I can't seem to pin down the why, when and whatfors of that hole.


I seem to have a inchoate memory that Old Tom is responsible for the current Home hole, that he extended it past Granny Clark's Wynd to the current location... and remembering it was a 22 hole configuration, I can't seem to place where that is accounted as true, or if it was before and after the adoption of an 18 hole standard or such?


1.  Did Old Tom make the current hole?
2.  Or did the final hole always end where it does now?
3.  If changed at all, about when?
4.  If so, what was "there" before it?
5.  If so, was the Valley of Sin "made" or "incorporated" into the newer site?
6.  If so, which was the last "hole/green" before it was made/amended; the Road Hole?
7.  If so, how did any changes impact the 1st hole?


I'm sure someone out here knows the answers...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2020, 03:12:57 PM »
VK:


I am not close at hand to Scott Macpherson's book about the evolution of The Old Course, but here are some short answers:



1.  I think so
2.  IIRC, the original 22 holes started and ended up near the monument [further up into town]
3.  Don't remember a date
6.  No, it was further up.


In the very early days, the sea came much further into today's first fairway.  What the locals call "the Bruce Embankment" was a big landfill project that created the parking lots, the British Golf Museum, and more fairway on the first hole, which once pinched down quite toward the Swilcan Bridge.  The landfill was done in the 1890's, so Old Tom would have overseen whatever changes to the 1st and 18th holes.  I'm guessing the first green was redone at the time, but not sure if the 18th green was changed as it would not have been part of the landfill.

Bob Montle

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2020, 03:33:16 PM »
According to James Balfour in Reminiscences of Golf on St Andrews Links,Tom Morris built the 18th green in 1865."Formerly the hole was on broken ground in a hollow, with the ground sloping down on both sides.There was another serious hazard made by the sea, which came up to the stair of the present Club-house.That hazard was a very serious one, as the sand at that place was as deep as the high tide."
Between 1842 to 1861 Sir Hugh Playfair, as provost, built three breakwaters and reclaimed the spaces between them with the town's refuse and blinding it with soil and sand.  This created the current 1st and 18th fairways.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Marty Bonnar

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2020, 04:14:58 PM »
I’ve never quite understood just how the Course got up as far as the Martyrs. At least once the Union Parlour had been built...
F.
PS There’s a phenomenal old photo showing the fishing boats filled with rubble forming the Bruce embankment.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

David_Tepper

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2020, 04:16:27 PM »
Unless I am mistaken, the 1st fairway at TOC has pretty much been smoothed flat, while the 18th fairway does have some subtle contour (and the Valley of Sin). Can anyone explain how/why that happened? 

Marty Bonnar

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2020, 04:46:03 PM »
David,
Much of the first fairway is built on reclaimed ground. This composite shows the current aerial overlaid with the 1854 survey. The High Water Mark is the  black line running west from the clubhouse!:

Reproduced with the permission of the National Library of Scotland
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2020, 08:09:50 PM »
Tommy's Honour gives details about OTM creating the current 18th at TOC.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Macpherson

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2020, 06:50:09 AM »
For all the fine books and media articles I've taken in, I can't seem to pin down the why, when and whatfors of that hole.


I seem to have a inchoate memory that Old Tom is responsible for the current Home hole, that he extended it past Granny Clark's Wynd to the current location... and remembering it was a 22 hole configuration, I can't seem to place where that is accounted as true, or if it was before and after the adoption of an 18 hole standard or such?


1.  Did Old Tom make the current hole?
2.  Or did the final hole always end where it does now?
3.  If changed at all, about when?
4.  If so, what was "there" before it?
5.  If so, was the Valley of Sin "made" or "incorporated" into the newer site?
6.  If so, which was the last "hole/green" before it was made/amended; the Road Hole?
7.  If so, how did any changes impact the 1st hole?


I'm sure someone out here knows the answers...


Hi,


I'll try and provide some answers ...


1. Old Tom made the new green c1866. It was a dynamic time. The line of railway had been set in 1852, and the Links Road wars were raging from 1820-1880. This would define the boundary along the southern side of the 18th hole. Old Tom had moved back to St Andrews in 1864, and in 1865 was appointed custodian of the Links by the R&A in 1865. In 1866 he moved the 18th green back from Granny Clark's Wynd about 50-60 to it's current place. Andrew Kirkaldy wrote in his book, '...(it) was built up from a rubbish heap that had served sometime as a burial ground.'


The above answer should answer your questions 2,3,4, & 5


6. This was the last hole prior to the change to the 18th green. i.e. it was the 18th hole. Peter Lewis has written a good book on why there is 18 holes on a golf course, and this has to do with St Andrews. The Old Course stopped being 18 holes in 1764 when the eleven holes out and back were reduced to nine holes out and back. We know very little about the 22 hole course. The R&A clubhouse did not exist at this time (not until the 1850s). Early plans of the course talk of the 1st hole being the 'Hole o' Hill', but the thinking is not that the 22 hole course extended up the hill towards The Scores and the Monument, but that the tee for the 1st hole and green for the 4th hole were anchor points (in similar location as to where they are today) and all that happened was that instead of having 4 holes between these locations, there are two. And as a result of merging these holes, the links is now 18 holes (and not 22).


Hope that helps...


Best,


Scott
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 12:42:32 PM by Scott Macpherson »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2020, 07:44:26 AM »
Scott.


Thank you. Would it be possible to edit point number 6? It scurries about in places.


best
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2020, 08:33:39 AM »
We don't know much about the 22 hole course, though there are some intriguing hints. Peter Lewis thinks the last (22nd) green was somewhere near what is now the Old Tom Morris Shop. There are remnants of 'Halket's Bunker' (sp?) in the current 18th FW, which suggests that a green might have been placed somewhere nearby on the older course. There are land forms between the 17th and 2nd FW's that Peter speculates might have once been related to greens in those areas. It seems most of the holes eliminated were at the beginning and end of the round.


Bottom line is that much of the 22 hole version of TOC remains a mystery.


Bob   
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 08:39:07 AM by BCrosby »

James Reader

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2020, 06:13:56 AM »
Slightly different take on the architecture of the Old Course, but does anyone know what is being done to the area next to the Rusacks Hotel?  What used to be the car park (and a conservatory I think) is now a building site.  The sheds and end of the OC Hotel nearest to the 17th tee are also covered in scaffolding - no “O” to aim over with the drive.


It struck me that it’s hard to imagine another great course having major construction work going on within a few yards of a fairway and it not being mentioned on here.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2020, 07:09:07 AM »
Plans were approved a few years ago for a big extension to Rusack’s. Maybe finally going ahead: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-34018233


There’s major work being done to the R&A clubhouse too. Mostly underground!


F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2020, 07:44:36 AM »
Looks like it Marty.  I trust they are going to be reinforced-glass front suites! 

Hope it’s going to fit in better than the Old Course Hotel.




Jeff Schley

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2020, 08:59:40 AM »
https://www.scottishconstructionnow.com/article/plans-unveiled-for-rusacks-hotel-extension-and-roof-top-bar
An update from Nov 2019, in addition seems they will renovate the existing 70 rooms as well and close until it is done.  Is the hotel closed now?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 09:05:29 AM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
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Thomas Dai

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2020, 09:49:31 AM »
The Bruce Embankment must be pretty key in relation to both the normal and reverse course. Tides and floods and sandy waste areas etc. Even wee boats and playing children.
Atb

Forrest Richardson

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2020, 01:59:28 PM »

From 22 to 18 is covered in many books, including quite a bit in my Routing the Golf Course title. I always found Bill Yates's explanation (theory) very interesting, here is the passage:

Pace-of-play expert Bill Yates, who has studied The Old Course in an effort to keep play moving in the 2000s, theorizes that the change very well could have had something to do with congestion on the links, even way back then. “If I analyze the course as it might have been with extra holes in those parts of the round, the waiting times might have driven the members a bit nutty,” he notes. Decongestion is as good of theory as any. And why not? Golf is an experience to be enjoyed. Imagine four short holes to begin a round, about 200 yards each. While it might not have been so bad with the limited length of the balls of the time, this configuration still could have caused players to wait, as short holes seem to beg congestion, especially when bunched together. It may also have provided another distraction in that the closing holes, as the holes were played in reverse on the way in, were of the same short length. Hardly the type of finish one would want on a challenging test. Taking the rough dimension of 800 yards (the approximate total of the original first four holes) and removing two holes raises the yardage of these three opening holes — and three finishing holes — to around 400 yards each. Each of these holes — the first two and the last two — are today all par 4s, and, yes, their yardages are, in fact, just under or slightly over 400 yards apiece. This configuration sounds infinitely better than what we envision to have been there prior to 1764. Even with the first stroke play being mentioned in 1759, match play would have been undoubtedly better suited to this design as well.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Niall C

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2020, 02:41:18 PM »
Forrest


I have to say, I think Bill Yates theory hardly likely. If I recall correctly at that time they were playing to the same hole going in and out at that time, plus there was (is) the cross over at the far end, all of which would have caused a lot more concern if golfers were that bothered about it.


Niall

Forrest Richardson

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2020, 04:02:08 PM »

Niall — Geometrically and play-wise, I do not believe (in 1764) that it would have made any difference if playing to the same hole (common holes). The "short" holes that were congested up near what is now the R&A and the Obelisk would have been a traffic jam at certain times. Regardless of playing to the same hole, players would have been hitting into each other length-wise to the hole — as well as proximity-wise. It would have added insult to injury in terms of congestion.[/font]
[/font]To me, Bill's



« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 06:32:14 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2020, 04:38:25 PM »


To me, Bill's rationale was as good as anyone's. In a conversation with Walter Woods (greenkeeper) he and I discussed this theory, of which Walter thought Bill's belief may be spot on.


Meanwhile in other St. Andrews' news a man may or may not have done something that someone might or might not have seen. Our local correspondent who is also on the spot says which ever occurrence happened is anybody's guess but is possibly spot on.


And now for something completely different  ::)

Forrest Richardson

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2020, 06:37:42 PM »
Jon — Yes, of course. But theory in this case was based on Bill's long tenure with the R&A and the Links Trust, helping them to understand and improve pace of play, both for daily play as well as during The Open. Bill had access to many of the greatest minds at St. Andrews for his work, and while he is no longer here to defend his theory — I'm giving him the benefit.

Besides the town wanting more land to develop, I've never heard of a better rationale. They did have choices, including retaining 22 holes — making them up somewhere else, etc. — but they chose a particular path, and that was to transform 4 holes that were particularly short into two holes that were each longer.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Marty Bonnar

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2020, 06:44:26 PM »
I’m still not getting it.
4 - 2 = 2.
22 - 2 = 20.
They needed to lose 4, not combine 4 into 2.
I still think there’s more afoot than simple combination/shortening.
F.


Edit: yes, you could combine 4 into 2, but you’d still have to lose 2. I’m not explaining this well. I’ve played Kinghorn today, had a couple of wines and am a bit tired! ;D
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 06:47:52 PM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2020, 07:07:12 PM »
Pre 1764 there were 12 holes dug into the ground. Players began at the one near the Obleisk and played out to the Firth. You played 11 out — and 11 in.

Post 1764 they only dug 10 holes into the ground. The one removed was higher up on the hill, near the Obleisk. Instead of starting there, you began lower, toward where you do today. 9 out — 9 in.

Each hole dug into the ground — except the beginning one and last one — were visited twice...once out — and once in.

In 1832, congestion was improved (again) with the dual holes dug into each green area.

In 1857 came the expansive widening of the formal greens.

In 1870, the 17th Green was developed (for the clockwise round, so No. 1 green as played today), making No. 1 (modern day) an orphan (when the course played anti-clockwise).

I hope this helps. Fortunately I have not yet opened a bottle of red.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 12:00:37 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Garland Bayley

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2020, 09:28:40 PM »
... but they chose a particular path, and that was to transform 4 holes that were particularly short into two holes that were each longer.

And in modern parlance where each green has 2 holes in it, they eliminated two greens, that would eliminate 4 golf holes.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 04:23:59 AM »
I’m still not getting it.
4 - 2 = 2.
22 - 2 = 20.
They needed to lose 4, not combine 4 into 2.
I still think there’s more afoot than simple combination/shortening.
F.


Edit: yes, you could combine 4 into 2, but you’d still have to lose 2. I’m not explaining this well. I’ve played Kinghorn today, had a couple of wines and am a bit tired! ;D


Marty,


they played to the same hole out and back ergo twice. 2 x 2 = 4. Back then the course may have been a bit quieter and the ball (a feathery) was less dangerous so safety was not the issue it would be now.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: What's the Architectural History of the 18th at The Old Course?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 05:19:26 AM »


In 1870, the 17th Green was developed, making No. 1 an orphan (when the course played anti-clockwise).



Hi Forrest,


My understanding is that the 17th green is an original green location and it was the 1st green that was made (by Old Tom, c 1870).


Regards,


Scott