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Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Define Playability
« on: July 21, 2020, 01:40:35 AM »
Our course is currently part way through redevelopment project which primarily centres around bunker reconstruction/removal/relocation.


Previously, the bunkers were rebuilt 15 years ago but the final product ended up very difficult for the average consumer and a maintenance headache due to the depth and steepness of faces.


As part of rebuilding them this time, it was recognised that thought be given to their function as well as form with emphasis being placed on creating an overall experience that is more manageable for the lesser player while retaining challenge for the low marker. This has seen some much needed large scale removal take place with closely mown swales being employed as a key component of the green complexes. This was in response to the desire to make a more "playable" course for a wider spectrum of abilitites.


It is this term "playable" or "playability" that is at the root of some dissension.


The lower handicap player that is grumbling as they now perceive the course to be harder and have seen their supposed advantage eroded. The high handicapper is loving that they now no longer hit into one of the bunkers and automatically pick up after 2 or 3 failed attempts at extraction. It is a vocal minority that feel that the goal of Playability has not been achieved because they now struggle more around the greens.


My question is this: How would you succinctly explain the term playability to this collective who seem to be confused and feel it was to mean holes became easier?


Im looking for a good simple explanation or example on how to represent this effectively and could use some help as I know there are plenty of people on board here who are extremely adept at communication


Thanks for your help




A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2020, 07:55:25 AM »
Philosopically, it's the feeling by players of all skill levels after their round that they enjoyed the course, and that next time, they'll REALLY score well.
In practical design terms, it's width off the tee, with increasing complexity and options as you get closer to the green. 

All of that said, the bunker issue is a REALLY difficult one in the equation.  My home course has bunkering that is, on the one hand, brilliantly placed, but on the other, horribly penal even for good players, and a real disaster for lesser players.  The problem, of course, is that good players can avoid even well-placed bunkers for the most part, while lesser players are just brutalized for no good reason. 

At a previous club, the owner, the head pro, and the new super worked together on making changes to the bunkers.  They took out several that only further penalized players who were already dead on a particular hole, made others far less penal, especially farther back from the green and with a clear idea of which ones were savior bunkers and which were meant to be hazards, and in ALL of them reducing the maintenance issues on a case by case basis.  The results were wonderful, and I hope yours goes as well as that project did.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2020, 08:46:16 AM »
Grant:


I don't know how many bunkers you are talking about, but it would be an interesting exercise to ask every member over, say, a ten-handicap, which five or ten bunkers they would remove from the course, and throw out any that receive a majority.


But, it depends on your members.  They might be the type to throw out the Road bunker at St. Andrews!


I would define seeking playability as giving the higher handicap players a way around most of the trouble on the course, "irrespective of the fact that they are piling up a big score," as Dr. MacKenzie put it.  But it does NOT mean that the hazards should be neutered so it's easy to play even if you're in one.




Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2020, 09:33:07 AM »
The lower handicap player that is grumbling as they now perceive the course to be harder and have seen their supposed advantage eroded. The high handicapper is loving that they now no longer hit into one of the bunkers and automatically pick up after 2 or 3 failed attempts at extraction. It is a vocal minority that feel that the goal of Playability has not been achieved because they now struggle more around the greens.


This seems like the mark of a successful project to me, Grant. Greenside bunker play being (IMO) the most specialized skill in the game, it creates the biggest gap between players of different handicaps, eventually to the point of being disproportionate. This disproportion is widened as bunkers get deeper because good bunker players can escape a four-foot deep bunker about as well as they can escape a two-foot deep bunker, whereas any hope the poor bunker player may have had from a two-footer tends to go away completely in a four-footer and deeper.


Another factor that further separates the good bunker players from the bad ones in a hurry is the presentation of bunkers. A bad bunker player is not much better from perfectly prepared sand than from unpredictable or inconsistent sand, but better bunker players' fortunes tend to change as the bunker conditions change.


It seems at this point that most members and courses haven't yet accepted that bunkers have drifted far away from their original purpose, so until there is an epiphany as to how bunkers ought to be presented, it seems that reducing the bunker footprint at many courses is inevitably going to make them more playable.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2020, 09:48:52 AM »
Grant,


Great question!  I once wrote that a design should imagine a foursome of decent players, whose primary game strengths were (in order) accuracy, finesse, and distance, with the fourth member of the foursome a "D" player, and try to design at least some holes for each type of player.


Not sure that is exactly the sound bite you are looking for.  Of course, as a gca working primarily in the public course sector, it is a question I have grappled with, sometimes discussing it with the Tour pros I have worked with, since they claim to be concerned, but often had no clue.


For those who thought about it, substitution of grass hazards for sand was one primary technique.  If your good players find the Fw chipping swales harder, and your average ones find them easier, I think most people (except for strict anti-socialists) would say that is using architecture to somewhat level the playing field is a good thing.  That has always been the goal of making courses playable and entertaining for all.


Also, while some here lament the relatively small use of the carry bunker (either fw on tee shot or green front bunkers) I believe them falling out of favor was really for similar reasons - good players rarely come up short, while average ones do at least 25% of the time, and if you count slight mis hits, maybe 75% of the time.  Thus, frontal bunkers punish average players while not really challenging good ones.  So, why use this kind of feature? 


On approach shots, good players spray shots within a 10-12% of distance range, vs. 15-16% for average players, so the lateral hazards (or any type, but especially sand which is 4X harder for average players) work for both level of players.  Placing sand bunkers front right especially, can kill average players.  So, why use this kind of feature?  Sometimes, sure, but often, chocolate drop mounds, mounds, fw cut, steep banks, green roll offs, etc. make more sense (right up until the point that it becomes obvious to those golfers that you are being totally condescending, and then, those features fall out of favor.)


Right side sand bunkers should rarely be on the front third of the green, under this theory, and should almost never extend much past the front edge of the green.  Every time I play one of my courses, on almost every hole, if I had just pulled those bunkers back a bit, one less player would have been in the bunker.  No kidding, really.  The hard part architecturally is that pulling those bunkers forward a bit really makes them stand out visually in many cases.


Of course, playability is not just hazards, but the targets themselves.  Average players at 225 (and 16% spray) need about 36 yard fw, so making them at least that wide in their prime LZ makes sense, perhaps narrowing them further to 30 yards down the fw.  For that matter, any tee shot that ends up more than 200 yards from the green has been punished enough, since the average guy has taken themselves out of range of reaching the green in two, so why place trees and deep rough there?  Or, anything but reasonable length rough, rather than natives, sandy waste, water, etc.?  Or, for that matter, "fore" bunkers placed mostly for looks, but easily carried by better players?


Ditto for greens.  The USGA Slope guide bases their green size recommendations on 2/3 of A and D players hitting those percentages of width and depth (still about 10-12% for low handicap and 20-22% for lesser players) so generally (and with a few exceptions, nothing wrong with an occasional (slightly) smaller target calling for extreme accuracy) greens ought to be big enough to hold those shots.  I once statistically studied what it would take to up that to a more logical 3/4 of average golfers and it expands quite a bit, beyond practical sizing.  And for all 4 D players in a group to hit the green?  Montana!


And, of course, those target sizes are probably for greens that slope back to front, to help hold shots, another idea that became standardized, perhaps too much, but probably should be used in the majority of cases, with side slope and reverse slope greens being used only for a change of pace.


But, I digress.  Basically, while now trashed as outdated, the post WWII design era focused on playability for all (other than RTJ and Wilson) and yes, the design became a bit more boring.  But, not all of that due to playability.  After all, as TD  points out, Mac was all in favor of courses that didn't pile up a score.  A lot of grass makes for a nice park like setting, which most find quite pleasant.  And, to me, it would seem dealing with all types of hazards occasionally would be more interesting over a round, season, or golf career, than always  ending up in sand bunker on yet another "bunker left, bunker right" kind of green.


As always, just trying to synthesize some of the group think that exists in the industry, if not around here! :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2020, 02:35:30 PM »
Ah the noisy minority.
You can’t please all the people all the time.
I’ve experienced similar situations at private members clubs, and I’m assuming your referencing a private members club here.
My suggestion would be to have a members forum (don’t refer to it as an EGM, it’s a discussion forum). Adopt a neutral position yourself, ie “I’m just chairing this forum, it’s your club, what do you want to do”.
The noisy minority will no doubt make noise. Let them, it’s their club too. If others, whether they be a perceived silent majority or not, disagree with the noise makers then they too have an opportunity to make some noise themselves. If they do, they do, if they don’t they don’t. One side or the other will win the day but don’t be perceived as taking sides yourself. Have a show of hands if necessary.
Keep neutral to avoid hassles in the future and avoid getting into specifics about bunker shapes and sizes and lips and stuff.
And when it comes to the in the field shaping of the bunkers themselves and there relative ease or difficulty, you’ll probably be able to do pretty much what you like coz the noisy members will have vented their spleen of displeasure by then and most of the others will probably have forgotten what was agreed.
You can’t please all the people all the time though.
Good luck.
Atb

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2020, 01:36:17 PM »
Our course is currently part way through redevelopment project which primarily centres around bunker reconstruction/removal/relocation.


Previously, the bunkers were rebuilt 15 years ago but the final product ended up very difficult for the average consumer and a maintenance headache due to the depth and steepness of faces.


As part of rebuilding them this time, it was recognised that thought be given to their function as well as form with emphasis being placed on creating an overall experience that is more manageable for the lesser player while retaining challenge for the low marker. This has seen some much needed large scale removal take place with closely mown swales being employed as a key component of the green complexes. This was in response to the desire to make a more "playable" course for a wider spectrum of abilitites.


It is this term "playable" or "playability" that is at the root of some dissension.


The lower handicap player that is grumbling as they now perceive the course to be harder and have seen their supposed advantage eroded. The high handicapper is loving that they now no longer hit into one of the bunkers and automatically pick up after 2 or 3 failed attempts at extraction. It is a vocal minority that feel that the goal of Playability has not been achieved because they now struggle more around the greens.


My question is this: How would you succinctly explain the term playability to this collective who seem to be confused and feel it was to mean holes became easier?


Im looking for a good simple explanation or example on how to represent this effectively and could use some help as I know there are plenty of people on board here who are extremely adept at communication


Thanks for your help


Playability:


From the "correct" set of tees for one's length:


Easy birdie opportunities with well struck shots
Easy pars everywhere
Super Easy to bogey most holes
Double bogey means you have major issues with your game that need to be addressed

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2020, 02:15:55 PM »
Playability:


From the "correct" set of tees for one's length:


Easy birdie opportunities with well struck shots
Easy pars everywhere
Super Easy to bogey most holes
Double bogey means you have major issues with your game that need to be addressed
That sounds like the very definition of easy, not playable and a game on a course like that doesn't sound like it involves much challenge, so doesn't involve much fun, either.  Surely we can get beyond "playable=easy"?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2020, 03:14:07 PM »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2020, 03:21:07 PM »
Greenside bunker play being (IMO) the most specialized skill in the game, it creates the biggest gap between players of different handicaps, eventually to the point of being disproportionate. This disproportion is widened as bunkers get deeper because good bunker players can escape a four-foot deep bunker about as well as they can escape a two-foot deep bunker, whereas any hope the poor bunker player may have had from a two-footer tends to go away completely in a four-footer and deeper.


These generalizations (kudos for the IMHO caveat) are what make these discussions difficult.  I'm really struggling to break 90 but retain the greenside bunker play of a 4 handicap.  In fact, I'd rather play from a greenside bunker -  whatever the depth, than a tightly mowed fairway. 

We tend to assume that all mid or high cappers are alike but the fact of the matter is they have varied skill sets, just fewer of them that are dependable. 


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2020, 03:43:25 PM »
Playability:


From the "correct" set of tees for one's length:


Easy birdie opportunities with well struck shots
Easy pars everywhere
Super Easy to bogey most holes
Double bogey means you have major issues with your game that need to be addressed
That sounds like the very definition of easy, not playable and a game on a course like that doesn't sound like it involves much challenge, so doesn't involve much fun, either.  Surely we can get beyond "playable=easy"?


I agree completely.  As I referred earlier, Dr. MacKenzie wanted to give people a way to steer around all of his hazards, but only if they took more strokes to do so.  He wasn't trying to give people easy birdie opportunities.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2020, 05:01:31 PM »
Maybe the most inclusive definition of playability I have heard is, "A course that lets the golfer shoot about his/her average score."


That's all the mid handicap and duffer seem to want, and they realize they aren't likely to get better.  They do not want it so easy as to make all kinds of birdies, unless they are really playing above their head, and not because the course is easy, nor a course that causes their score to rise way above normal, on their normal day, and excluding those days when they show up hungover or whatever.


Of course, that doesn't tell us the details of how to achieve such a course for a wide variety of players, but everyone has some ideas on that.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Steven

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2020, 09:15:19 PM »
Lots of great stuff here so I'm trying to think how I can add to the thread.  What comes to mind is the assumption that when we say "playable" or "playability", I think we mean so for all.  In other words, the golf course can provide for both a stern test and plenty of birdie or par opportunities at the same time for golfers of all levels.  As others have pointed out, that means options to play holes successfully, again, to capitalize on opportunity or mitigate disaster.  Forced carries, deep bunkers (greenside or fairway), requirements for precise distance control on approaches ... these are all things that make a course less playable for all. 


Thinking out loud, I wonder if it's generally true that "playability" is inversely related to slope.  Higher slope courses are just that because they play in such a way as to be disproportionately harder for higher handicappers versus lower handicaps.  A course can be extremely difficult in an absolute way (which would be reflected in the course rating) but have a lower slope which would suggest the course is, relatively speaking at least, no more difficult for the lesser player than the scratch golfer. 


Hope this helps ...

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2020, 09:45:30 AM »
Anyone who can break 100 can get from here to there while losing no more than a sleeve of balls.


Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2020, 09:48:34 AM »
Anyone who can break 100 can get from here to there while losing no more than a sleeve of balls.


Bogey


Not far off.  Once golf balls hit $40+ per dozen (and golfers felt the need to use them) I think they started to mentally factor the cost of lost balls into the round and their budgets.


But, it's not new.  Pete Dye always said the success of Pinehurst was really down to one thing - with the pine needles and only one pond (on no. 2) barely in play, resort golfers rarely lost a ball.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Define Playability
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2020, 10:23:37 AM »
Yes, probably what Jeff (and Pete Dye) said.


But I was thinking: we don't often focus on the "play" part of playability -- as in "being playful" or "children at play".


I'm not the one to discuss it, because I have a feeling I was never really good at "playing", even when I was a child.


But there does seem to be two distinct meanings possible: the 'adult' playability, i.e. not losing a ball and making a few pars and breaking 90/100 and scoring what you expect to score;


and the 'child's' play, i.e. coming out of the imagination and totally free without rigid rules or external restraints...when, if you were playing cops and robbers and got shot and died, you counted to five and were alive again




Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2020, 10:27:25 AM »
Since it opened, playability has been something the membership at LedgeRock have been working on. While the majority of the members like the challenge it presents, there has been an ongoing effort to tweak it to make it more playable for the higher handicap players, while keeping the challenge the low handicappers love about the property. Over the years we've added tees, tweaked grassing lines etc. The bunkers have aged to the point where they need replacing which started the conversation of moving and adjusting them to make them more playable (in the sense of consistancy of the sand) and more playable for all handicaps and reduce maintainence where possible.

Around the same time the USGA Green Section were starting it's Resource Management Program. It seemed like it would help with getting the information the club needed so I signed up to have it done. While this is not going to help in the playability directly, one of the facets is that it shows how players of different handicaps play the course, along with other areas such as pinch points, cart traffic patterns etc. The information it provided was invaluable and it was able to validate the bunkers and other areas that Rees, the membership and myself had thought were problems or not, although it did show us stuff that we didn't know we didn't know! From that information, the club has been able to remodel 10 and 17 to satisify the memberships needs and both have been very well recieved and the work continues.

https://rm.usga.org/landing.html


If anyones is interested, here is more info on some of the changes:
https://ledgerockgcmaintenance.blogspot.com/2019/06/it-has-been-brought-to-my-attention.html










« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 10:34:15 AM by Alan FitzGerald »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2020, 10:31:32 AM »
Peter,


Yes, the kid gets beat out of all of us, and my first reaction was that the R and A and USGA certainly serve (perhaps unintentionally) to beat the fun out of golf, in the name of upper echelon competition.


The sense of fun in golf can be those heroic carries, maybe blind holes, undulating greens where you might start your putt 90 degrees to the intended line, etc.  Golfers seem to have a more grown up mentality about such silliness.


Cross pollinating with the Whitten thread, maybe the biggest creative paradigm shift would be a golf course design aimed at pure fun, not protecting par.  I'm sure its been done at least in bits and pieces, and it would take some willpower to do an entire course that way.  For one thing, the Whitten created scoring system for greatness probably wouldn't recognize it very highly. :o
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2020, 11:52:59 AM »








This was a very odd study to me.  Of course most of the play is from the right of the fairway -- most golfers slice!  But shifting more fairway between the bunker and the green will cause more balls to wind up in the bunkers, and more little approaches to have to carry the greenside bunker, which will slow up play, too.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2020, 11:54:11 AM »

Cross pollinating with the Whitten thread, maybe the biggest creative paradigm shift would be a golf course design aimed at pure fun, not protecting par.  I'm sure its been done at least in bits and pieces, and it would take some willpower to do an entire course that way.  For one thing, the Whitten created scoring system for greatness probably wouldn't recognize it very highly. :o


Yes, it's been done in bits and pieces.  And sometimes the scoring system comes around to recognizing it, although not at first.  Ballyneal would be a good example of that.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2020, 01:41:12 PM »
The short and sharp definition is hit it, find it, hit it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2020, 04:25:05 PM »

"The short and sharp definition is hit it, find it, hit it."



Sean  hits it on the head.


For me" playability" is more about the maintenance set up - so the ball will be playable.


If there's too much salad in, or close, to the line of play then the chances that a slight mishit buries itself in thick grass means it's both difficult to find, and if you find it, difficult to hit -  possibly unplayable.


Thick semi-rough around greens, long rough next to a narrow fairway, long carries over long grass can all lead to "unplayabilility"


To achieve good "playability" in temperate zones it's usually a matter of cutting more grass, on Desert courses I can imagine wide corridors more difficult to achieve.






David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2020, 09:18:50 PM »
Playability:


From the "correct" set of tees for one's length:


Easy birdie opportunities with well struck shots
Easy pars everywhere
Super Easy to bogey most holes
Double bogey means you have major issues with your game that need to be addressed
That sounds like the very definition of easy, not playable and a game on a course like that doesn't sound like it involves much challenge, so doesn't involve much fun, either.  Surely we can get beyond "playable=easy"?


I agree completely.  As I referred earlier, Dr. MacKenzie wanted to give people a way to steer around all of his hazards, but only if they took more strokes to do so.  He wasn't trying to give people easy birdie opportunities.


Isn't playability reflected quite well in slope? I would think your "playable" courses at 6500 yards have slope below ~125, while much above that is not very playable. An interesting exercise might be to simply divide courses into a few groups and assess their "playability" that way. Would probably find some interesting data around number and placement of hazards, green speeds, depth of bunkers, etc.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2020, 10:25:11 PM »
I think playability largely boils down to how many golf balls are lost during the course of play. 


A course can be difficult or easy without the threat of lost balls but everyone can play.


Other factors exist but I think they are at the margins.   

JHoulihan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define Playability
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2020, 12:55:17 AM »
I had a hard time trying to find the words for my feelings, but I think Jason is onto something. Not everyone has played in the desert southwest but I will do my best to describe a few local Phoenix courses.


Course 1 (Camelback Ambiente) is pretty straightforward from tee to green. Avoid the bunkers and stay down the middle and you can make a good score. But beware, venture off line and the native grasses will either keep you from finding your ball at all or if found - advancing less than 100 yards forward. Quintero is the other course that comes to mind but is due to desert scape and cactus versus grass. Both options could allow lost balls numbering 2 to 12+ depending your handicap.


Course 2 (500 club). Does have some water present (holes 4, 6, 12, 13, 17, and 18) but the thinning of desert scrub makes it possible to find balls hit even 10 plus yards offline. Since open year round, the course has been thinning for months/years and may not be immediately noticed. It does allow for recovery shots toward or near the green complex. This allows the players ability to choose the level of risk on the next shot (higher risk high reward going for the green versus medium risk of aiming the ball toward the area 10-50 yards short of green. This leaves you having a simple chip with nearly zero bunkers blocking your view and allows both low and high trajectories.


Is course 2 better? That is up for you to decide, but my vote is 100% more "playable"


This is much easier visually than written, but we shall see if the local Phoenicians and visitors agree.


Justin
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 01:00:51 AM by JHoulihan »