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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2020, 02:10:19 PM »
Tom:


You can't have your cake and eat it too.


You can't ask for corroboration on the Bendelow layout and not understand that there has been no corroboration for the story you are trying to present, namely that golf at Dutcher/Pawling dates to 1890 or earlier.


Go read your first post in this thread again.  Is there any actual evidence for anything you presented, other than latter-day reports?  If there is, I'd love to see it.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2020, 03:49:42 PM »
Sven,
Please remove this entire topic from Golf Club Atlas. As I have stated and you do not seem to grasp, I DO UNDERSTAND the need for contemporaneous corroboration of the origin and evolution of the Dutcher course, and I am actively seeking it. When the research is complete I will publish the results and related conclusions, perhaps in a different forum.
Tom

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2020, 04:42:51 PM »
Tom:


Its your thread, you started this conversation with the assertion that Dutcher dates back to 1885.


If you don't have any evidence to support that contention, perhaps you should ask to have your thread deleted.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2020, 05:04:17 PM »
Tom:


Its your thread, you started this conversation with the assertion that Dutcher dates back to 1885.


If you don't have any evidence to support that contention, perhaps you should ask to have your thread deleted.


Sven
Did you read my latest post to which you have responded? I just asked you to have the thread removed. If you are not the one to do it, please advise me how to get it done.
(By the way, I do have evidence, but not complete contemporaneous evidence.)Tom

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2020, 06:22:12 PM »
Sven, never mind. I just requested the deletion via Contact Us.

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2020, 10:07:49 PM »
Sven, never mind. I just requested the deletion via Contact Us.


Tom,


Sorry you were compelled to request deleting the thread; however, I completely understand why!


Thanks for staying classy.


I was following it and would love to see the end results of your research.


Chris

MCirba

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 08:03:23 AM »
Guys,


Let's not delete this.


While the entire story of Dutcher isn't clear yet, I think collectively we've put together a number of puzzle pieces to help tell the story of a historically significant course.


In some ways this reminds me of Dorset Field Club, which claims to have been playing golf on the same site since 1886, yet I've seen no contemporaneous newspaper (or other) evidence of that before 1896 when the club was formalized and they decided to build a clubhouse due to growth.  In that case, it seems obvious they were playing prior to formalization but a decade seems a stretch without additional contemporaneous evidence.


Is it possible Bendelow planned a course but only 3 holes were built before Val Flood arrived?  I think that's possible and I'd just encourage Tom and others to keep digging and keep an open mind on where the trail may lead.


Have a good day.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2020, 08:15:19 AM »
Sven, never mind. I just requested the deletion via Contact Us.


Tom,


Sorry you were compelled to request deleting the thread; however, I completely understand why!


Thanks for staying classy.


I was following it and would love to see the end results of your research.


Chris
Thanks Chris.

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2020, 10:01:21 AM »
Guys,


Let's not delete this.


While the entire story of Dutcher isn't clear yet, I think collectively we've put together a number of puzzle pieces to help tell the story of a historically significant course.


In some ways this reminds me of Dorset Field Club, which claims to have been playing golf on the same site since 1886, yet I've seen no contemporaneous newspaper (or other) evidence of that before 1896 when the club was formalized and they decided to build a clubhouse due to growth.  In that case, it seems obvious they were playing prior to formalization but a decade seems a stretch without additional contemporaneous evidence.


Is it possible Bendelow planned a course but only 3 holes were built before Val Flood arrived?  I think that's possible and I'd just encourage Tom and others to keep digging and keep an open mind on where the trail may lead.


Have a good day.
The following scenario about the Dutcher course has been published in various places for at least 23 years, and possibly more than 45 years based on input from a recent town historian that the scenario was originated by a town historian who died in 1975: 3-hole private course is built in 1885 in conjunction with the opening of the Dutcher House Hotel; in 1890 the course is expanded to 9 holes and opened to the public; the course became a municipal course in 1950 when John Dutcher's daughter-in-law (the last remaining John B. Dutcher family member) in her will donated the course property to the Town of Pawling with the stipulation that it remain a golf course in perpetuity.


My initial research surfaced a question about when the course became a 9-hole course, and subsequent research revealed the following: several contemporaneous newspaper articles that place the opening of a 9-hole course laid out or "superintended" by Val Flood in 1901; the absence of any newspaper references to a Dutcher course before 1901 except for a 1997 local article that references a 3-hole course in 1890; a newspaper article that places the donation of the course to the Town of Pawling in 1955 versus 1950. More recently, a 1898 New York City newspaper article surfaced with a report that Tom Bendelow laid out a course for John B. Dutcher in that year; except for this singular article, Tom Bendelow's grandson Stuart has no knowledge of this situation.

Presently, research is focused on finding contemporaneous information on the origin and evolution of the Dutcher course, including the Tom Bendelow aspect. Based on the extensive digging I've done on the Internet and in national and local newspaper archives, I don't believes these sources will produce the desired information. Therefore, research is centered in three areas: material produced by the deceased town historian; the personal and family papers of John B. Dutcher, if they exist; early records and artifacts of the Dutcher House Hotel, if they exist. This work is being handled by the former president of the Pawling Historical Society. It has been delayed by covid-related unavailability of access to society and town records.

If anyone would like a summary of the material described in the second paragraph above, send me an email at: tbuggy@aol.com. A video of the history of the course presented by a recently retired town historian is available on YouTube. To access it from within the YouTube app, do a search for "History of Dutcher Golf Course." As you will see, the video contains some disputed information, most especially that the course was expanded to nine holes in 1890 (although the historian does say "apparently" in a written document).



Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2020, 10:06:21 AM »
Thank you for saving this thread. I can't add anything but I have found it interesting to read about a course I was unfamiliar with.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2020, 02:14:00 PM »
Tom,


Have you looked in The Trinity-Pawling School Archives?  The Pawling School Weekly was the name of the school newspaper.  I think Pawling School only dates back to 1907 in Pawling, but they may have some articles that give a good description of the history of the golf course or any changes made to the golf course in the 20’s or 30’s.  The Archives may even have some old aerial photos of the golf course or information on the Hotchkiss, Taft, or Lawrenceville school golf courses.


It would be nice to put together or see a chronology of the course as you gather more information.  A few searches of Pawling Golf shows up many names throughout the years:


John B. Dutcher Private Estate Course
Dutcher House Golf Course
Pawling Golf Links
Pawling Golf Club
Pawling Golf and Country Club
The Pawling School Golf Course
Wiccopee Golf Club
Dutcher Golf Course


Were all of these courses the same?  Did all of these golf clubs play on the Pawling Golf Links?


Bret
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 02:17:22 PM by Bret Lawrence »

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2020, 03:43:02 PM »
I have not looked at the school archives because of the late 1907  date. The course would have been fully developed at that time. By the way, the school was housed in the Dutcher House hotel from 1907 to 1910.  John B. DUtcher donated some of his land for the school to build a facility that is still in use today..


As for the course/club names, the school never had its own course; it used Dutcher for many years. I believe it uses Quaker Hill today. As for the other names, all of them except Wiccopee may refer to what is now Dutcher  Golf Course. "John B. Dutcher Private Estate Course" is a name associated with the report that Tom Bendelow laid out a course for John B. Dutcher in 1898. Previously published information has "Dutcher House Golf Course" as the name of the 3-hole course of 1885 and "Pawling Golf Links" as the name of the course when it became public in 1890. After the course became a 9-hole course in 1901, I have seen "Dutcher House Golf Links" used as the course name. I do not recognize "Pawling Golf Club" and "Pawling Golf and Country Club" as official names of the course. However, there was a club associated with the course after 1901 and matches were played against golf clubs in Sharon CT and Poughkeepsie NY; so, these may be club names versus course names. "Dutcher Golf Course" has been the course name since the course property was deeded to the Town of Pawling in 1955.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 08:15:42 AM by Tom Buggy »

MCirba

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2020, 10:32:12 PM »
Glad we're still alive and breathing here...

One thing hit me tonight from this July, 1901 article about Dutcher;



It seems relevant to our understanding that the article suggests that no golf existed prior to the hiring date of Mr. Meehan.

It was "then", with Mr. Meehan's (prior hired) assistance, that Dutcher and Meehan laid out the golf course.   It is important to understand that Mr. Meehan was also credited with the advancement of the Garden City Golf Club prior, working with Devereux Emmet and by extention, Walter Travis.   


It seem to me that if we can find out exactly when Mr. Dutcher hired Mr. Meehan then perhaps we can narrow the possible timeframes for the inception of the golf course.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom Buggy

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2020, 08:24:36 AM »
Based on a review of classified ads for Dutcher House via newspapers.com, the earliest mention of Meehan as manager of the hotel is January 13, 1901. As of July 29, 1900 the manager was Harry B. Warden, and no classified ads for the remainder of 1900 were found. Of four May, 1901 articles about the opening of the 9-hole course, only one mentions Meehan and the mention is that he "has men at work over the last several weeks laying out a nine-hole golf links...." The same article mentions that "Val Flood superintended the work." Another of the articles says Flood "laid out the links." Again, if anyone wishes to see a summary of these articles, send me an email at: tbuggy@aol.com (or tell me how to incorporate an 8.5x11-page PDF or JPG file into a post here).


I agree that there are some indications that the 1901 course could possibly be the first Dutcher course. However, previously published information, uncorroborated contemporaneously as it presently is, clearly establishes a 3-hole course in 1885 that was made public in 1890. I don't believe that the hiring of Meehan is relevant to proving/disproving the existence of the 3-hole course. Hopefully, the presently delayed ongoing research mentioned previously will do that.

MCirba

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2020, 09:18:42 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for looking up Mr. Meehan.   He seems an interesting figure and years later he was involved with the development of the golf course at St. Albans on Long Island.   Another article mentioned that he was the one who convinced Devereux Emmet and others to build a nine-hole course at Garden City once he took over the hotel there, which is today Garden City Golf Club.

I sent you a private message, thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2020, 10:03:28 AM »
Until we know for certain what happened, the possibility that Dutcher had a private "estate" course as well as the 1901 course for the Dutcher House Hotel should be entertained.


From the sounds of the articles on the Flood course, this was an entirely new course built on land that had not previously been used for golf.


If the Bendelow designed private course was built, it is entirely possible that it was solely for the private use of Dutcher and his friends, as many estate courses were around that time.  It would make sense he would build a second course closer to the hotel as an accommodation to his guests.  Around this time golf was almost a required feature for the country hotel in the Northeast.


It is also possible that Bendelow did a lay out and that course was never built (or used).


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2020, 10:13:23 AM »
I agree with Mike that the article he posted sounds like the first time Dutcher is building a permanent golf course for entertaining his guests. The article about the Bendelow course sounds to me like they were building a course for J. B. Dutcher’s personal use.  It makes no mention of the course being built for hotel guests or open to the public.


It would be very ironic if the Oldest Public Golf Course in the United States was called the John B. Dutcher Private Estate Course in 1898.


Considering the historian got the 1950 date incorrect, maybe his other two dates were also inaccurate?


It’s probably better to set aside the 1975 story for now and look for the actual history of the golf course which was reported on and we are discovering. This is where I thought the Pawling School Archives may come in handy.  I don’t think we need to disprove there wasn’t a three hole course at Dutcher as much as we need to prove there really was without using an article from 1975. 


As for me, I think Van Cortland was a permanent public golf course several years before the public was allowed to play the Dutcher golf course.  Nothing I have seen in this thread would make me think differently.  On top of that, Van Cortland has always been public.


Was Dutcher Golf Course public when The Pawling School took over the Dutcher house for 3 years?  According to the Annual Golf Guides, you needed permission from the school to play the course.  This would be similar to Yale which is considered a private course.  The public can play Yale, but they need permission from Yale to do so or be a member.  I wouldn’t put Yale in the same category as Van Cortland.


I hope they did play golf on a three hole course from 1886 to 1898, but to claim it was a permanent public fixture like Van Cortland seems like a stretch considering what we have found thus far.  On top of all that, where did the public golfers of Pawling buy their golf equipment in 1890?  Every start to a golf course before 1895 or so usually includes a piece about who brought the clubs and balls, because you couldn’t just walk into a store and buy them, especially in a sleepy hamlet of 780 people.


I would look at the information from 1975 as a reference or comparison after you’ve come to your own conclusions on what transpired.  Mixing it in with information you’ve already discovered causes confusion because the two stories and dates don’t exactly line up.  For example, don’t you find it strange that in 1886-1890 the historian called the course the Dutcher House Golf Course? In 1890 it was then called Pawling Golf Links and opened to the public (according to the historian) Then in 1898 it was called the Private Estate Course at J. B. Dutcher in the press. In 1901, the press again refers to the Dutcher House Golf Club and then some time in the 1900’s they called the course Pawling Golf Links again?  Whenever I see a timeline like this it makes me think the historian may have gotten the dates wrong and sent us down a rabbit hole.





MCirba

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2020, 12:08:13 PM »
Tom Buggy was kind enough to send me the synopsis of articles and sources to date.   I'm hoping my translation of his .pdf to an image is readable here.

Tom also mentioned the following caveat;  "At this point the document should not be considered a statement of fact, but rather a restatement of the previously published scenario. Legitimate questions have been raised and research is continuing to answer those questions. Please relate this context if you publish the document."
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 12:09:57 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2020, 12:48:16 PM »
Here is a link to a 1909 map of Pawling.  If you zoom in you can identify the Dutcher House, John B. Dutcher’s Estate, The Pawling School and The Pawling Golf Links as they were in 1909.  This map shows the golf links running very close to the train tracks.  This map is not drawn to scale, but it’s possible the course in 1909 was a little closer to the train tracks than today’s course. In the vicinity of Fairway Drive, Greenlawn Drive and Circle Drive?  South Main Street on this map doesn’t exactly follow the same path as what is today’s East Main Street.


https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3804p.pm006130/?r=-0.363,0.246,1.116,0.627,0

MCirba

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2020, 02:17:10 PM »
Does anyone know where the train tracks would be on a modern aerial?   Not sure I can see any on Google Maps.

**EDIT** Ok, I see them now on Google Earth.    And I see your point regarding the names of the streets, Bret.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 02:21:51 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2020, 02:24:53 PM »
Mike,


They are in the exact same location today.  Look for the Pawling Fire Department and look just east of the fire department or look west of Circle Drive.  They are about half way between Dutcher Avenue and the western edge of the Dutcher Golf Course property line.


Bret

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2020, 11:01:07 AM »
Bret,
Are there any stationary landmarks besides the railroad tracks that you can see?   Also, what would you think the map indicates as the Main Street road seems much closer to the tracks at that time?   Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Paul Jones

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Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2020, 12:46:02 PM »
What is the oldest 18 hole public golf course?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2020, 12:03:48 AM »
Mike,


I think there are many things on the map that haven’t changed.  If you look at the streets and the shape of the blocks many of them are the same today as they were in 1909.  Some roads have been realigned and where Main Street meets Railroad Avenue there appears to be slight alterations.  Some of the roads have also changed names. The Dutcher House, St. John’s Church and The Branch of the Croton River look to be stationary. 


South Main Street didn’t just change its name to East Main Street it changed its direction as well, at least according to this map. South Main Street as you can see in the 1909 map traveled southwest from the North Main Street intersection, following the Branch of the Croton River briefly before it turned south, running parallel to Dutcher Avenue and the railroad tracks. South Main Street and Dutcher Avenue were virtually twin streets top-to-bottom and the railroad tracks bisected them almost perfectly.


Today’s intersection of East Main Street and Coulter Avenue has been realigned and breaks up the symmetry. Today, East Main Street travels mainly in a southeast direction out of town and away from the railroad tracks.


If you duplicate Dutcher Ave on a modern map and slide it over to the intersection of Coulter Ave. and East Main Street you can visualize approximately where South Main Street would have traveled. Once you do that the 1909 golf course will be between that road your visualizing and the train tracks. Today’s Dutcher Golf Course will be between the road your visualizing and East Main Street.


Again, I’m not sure how accurate this map is, but this seems like a substantial enough change to point out.


Bret




MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oldest Public Golf Course
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2020, 09:32:15 AM »
Bret,


Thanks for that detail.


Using Google Earth it appears the boundary of today's Golf Course is about 315 yards further east than it was when that map was drawn, if indeed the golf course abutted the railroad tracks.



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/