Great courses give a recovery shot. That’s my bias.

[mike_malone]

As I play Glen Mills which I enjoy it is the most lush that I have ever seen it. If you are wayward you are severely punished.
I think that you should have some kind of recovery shot almost always and good design creates varied looks.

[Mark_Fine]

I agree but there are exceptions, Pine Valley is one.  Many times there is no recovery. 

[John Kavanaugh]

It takes a high level of skill to hit the perfect pitch out. Get over it.

[Colin Sheehan]

This reminds me of a key tenant of Mark Parsinen's design philosophy which he cultivated from his rounds on the Old Course and which he specifically implemented at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart. Here's a video of a conversation of Mark and Stuart McColm I recorded back in November of 2006.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_N4YsqTpQU

[David Ober]

Very much agree with this, but with one caveat: It's okay if a course has a few holes where there is NOT a "recovery shot" -- where the course demands that you execute a specific shot (or some variety, thereof), in order to have any reasonable chance at par.


I also don't mind if a hole's "bail out area" pushes your ball farther away from the pin. You bail out, you're going to be 30 yards away. I love that about the 17th at Bandon Dunes. One of my favorite "shortish" closing holes in all of golf.

[Ira Fishman]

It takes a high level of skill to hit the perfect pitch out. Get over it.

50% of my non-chips and putts are recovery shots. So I have needed to get over it. The addendum is on links courses where 20% of my shots may be sideways or backwards out of bunkers. Life can be truly unfair. Golf never is.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

If a great golf course does give you a recovery shot, I'd like it to be at least as interesting/thought provoking and charming (though more challenging) as one from the middle of the fairway. I suppose just about any architect (if he so intends) can provide 'room' for a mishit and the chance for a recovery; but the good architects manage to make those  recovery rooms fun in their own way/for their own sakes, and the very good ones manage over 18 holes to ensure variety too.*
Peter
* The much missed Mark B and I once exchanged thoughts on the Variety of Recovery Difficulty (VORD), which concept I believe Mark later trade-marked, along with Carnivorous Bunkers and FLOG (ie professional golf.)

[John Kavanaugh]

It takes a high level of skill to hit the perfect pitch out. Get over it.

50% of my non-chips and putts are recovery shots. So I have needed to get over it. The addendum is on links courses where 20% of my shots may be sideways or backwards out of bunkers. Life can be truly unfair. Golf never is.


Ira

What you call recovery sounds like can’t go for the pin for most. There is no such thing as a great course that plays easily for a bad golfer.


I think that we can all agree that a shot where your only option is to find a greenside bunker is a recovery shot. Anytime you are left with an up and down for par you have recovered.

[Ira Fishman]

It takes a high level of skill to hit the perfect pitch out. Get over it.

50% of my non-chips and putts are recovery shots. So I have needed to get over it. The addendum is on links courses where 20% of my shots may be sideways or backwards out of bunkers. Life can be truly unfair. Golf never is.


Ira

What you call recovery sounds like can’t go for the pin for most. There is no such thing as a great course that plays easily for a bad golfer.


I think that we can all agree that a shot where your only option is to find a greenside bunker is a recovery shot. Anytime you are left with an up and down for par you have recovered.

JK,


I am not a bad golfer but certainly a mediocre one. So I accept your definition of a recovery shot. On most holes even with a bad tee shot, I can get somewhere in range of up and down. But then there are Par 4s where I hit a good drive and a terrible second shot. Like I said, I got over it (mostly).


Ira

[JMEvensky]

[quote author=Peter Pallotta link=topic=68579.msg1644423#msg1644423 date=1594937087
If a great golf course does give you a recovery shot, I'd like it to be at least as interesting/thought provoking and charming (though more challenging) as one from the middle of the fairway. I suppose just about any architect (if he so intends) can provide 'room' for a mishit and the chance for a recovery; but the good architects manage to make those  recovery rooms fun in their own way/for their own sakes, and the very good ones manage over 18 holes to ensure variety too.*
Peter
* The much missed Mark B and I once exchanged thoughts on the Variety of Recovery Difficulty (VORD), which concept I believe Mark later trade-marked, along with Carnivorous Bunkers and FLOG (ie professional golf.)




Peter,I'd suggest interesting/thought provoking/charming recovery shots are part of what makes a great golf course.

[John Kavanaugh]

What's not fun about choosing a recovery option that leads to a bunker that most least likely results in failure?

[Mark Bourgeois]

If a great golf course does give you a recovery shot, I'd like it to be at least as interesting/thought provoking and charming (though more challenging) as one from the middle of the fairway. I suppose just about any architect (if he so intends) can provide 'room' for a mishit and the chance for a recovery; but the good architects manage to make those  recovery rooms fun in their own way/for their own sakes, and the very good ones manage over 18 holes to ensure variety too.*
Peter
* The much missed Mark B and I once exchanged thoughts on the Variety of Recovery Difficulty (VORD), which concept I believe Mark later trade-marked, along with Carnivorous Bunkers and FLOG (ie professional golf.)

For starters, it's got to be easier to design a course without recovery options than one with, therefore the former's VORD^TM is lower than the latter's.
(VORD^TM primer: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32487.msg641375/topicseen.html#msg641371)

[Kevin Pallier]

I think that you should have some kind of recovery shot almost always and good design creates varied looks.

Mayday

I tend to think of it great courses tend to provide a variety of options - whether it be off the tee, approaches or around the greeens.
 

[mike_malone]

I thought of this because Glen Mills has always provided recovery options even though there is death out there. I assumed because  the reform school has closed that the resources for the course might be stretched.
The net result was that the course had high grass in abundance.


Since my home course recently removed significant trees opening up long hidden options for recovery the difference was stark.


I also believe that Pine Valley has many recovery options since there is a lot of width and angles. Of course there are also no go areas.




I heard The Glen Mills School may  be reopening. That would be good of course for the purpose of the school but also to allow more maintenance on the course.


I want its greatness recovered.

[Sean_A]

[quote author=Peter Pallotta link=topic=68579.msg1644423#msg1644423 date=1594937087
If a great golf course does give you a recovery shot, I'd like it to be at least as interesting/thought provoking and charming (though more challenging) as one from the middle of the fairway. I suppose just about any architect (if he so intends) can provide 'room' for a mishit and the chance for a recovery; but the good architects manage to make those  recovery rooms fun in their own way/for their own sakes, and the very good ones manage over 18 holes to ensure variety too.*
Peter
* The much missed Mark B and I once exchanged thoughts on the Variety of Recovery Difficulty (VORD), which concept I believe Mark later trade-marked, along with Carnivorous Bunkers and FLOG (ie professional golf.)




Peter,I'd suggest interesting/thought provoking/charming recovery shots are part of what makes a great golf course.

I would go a step further. Interesting, tempting recovery shots are one of the most important tenents of golf.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I like the idea that it may be necessary to play two very good shots to recover from one bad one.  So the first recovery shot puts you in a place where it's possible to get up and down for par.

[Tom_Doak]

Recovery shots *are* golf architecture.


When building a course we put stakes and poles at the tee, the landing area, and the green.  If you can hit it from A to B to C like the thing is laid out, that's straightforward, and there's not much we are going to do to get in your way.  It may mean you're great, but it's boring to watch.


The interesting parts of golf are when a player veers from the ideal path.  You don't get to see how good Tiger Woods or Seve Ballesteros are when they're in the middle of the fairway with an 8-iron . . . you see it when they're in a bunker 240 yards from the green on the last hole, and they need to get it on the green.  Or when Mickelson is in the trees on 13 at Augusta.  Or when Arnie was in the rough . . . etc.


But if the rough is so thick that Arnie would have to punch out sideways, well, that's just stupid. 

[Adam Clayman]

There's a world of difference between a course that provides a variety of recoveries from various less than ideal situations, and, a repetitive slog of the same look, same shot option boring punch out.


After all, the greatest shots you'll ever hit, will be from the worst spots.



Raise a glass to freedom.

[John Kavanaugh]

So Doak says that even if only Phil, Tiger or Arnie can hit the shot it is still defined as a recovery option. Love it.


 

[Tom_Doak]

So Doak says that even if only Phil, Tiger or Arnie can hit the shot it is still defined as a recovery option. Love it.

John:


I've always thought that there should be some shots on a golf course that only the best of the best can hit.  Not many, but at least one or two.  Likewise, there should be some that only a Tour pro can pull off, or that only a low handicapper can pull off. 


The coolest is when you have some shots that are easier with a low trajectory, so that a good woman player can pull them off, but a Tour pro might struggle.  [The tee shot on the 11th at St. Andrews is one of those.]


Building every hole to a Tour player's game, or a 10-handicap's game, or ANY PARTICULAR PERSON'S GAME, is totally wrong in my opinion.  It's the only thing in golf course design that I consider "unfair" -- when it's easy for everyone on one side of the line [who can carry the ball 200 yards, say, or hit it straight as an arrow], and just beats the crap out of everyone who falls short of that standard.  The saving grace of Pine Valley is that it has some recovery shots that even the best of the best can't hit, with others that they can go for.

[Thomas Dai]

Recovery play is an essential part of a game where perfect doesn't occur very often, if ever. Great recovery shots by others or by yourself tend to be remembered. Other shots not so much. Skill and expectations are important aspects to recovery play however so one negative for me would be recovery shots that for reasons of pure strength and physique some folks can play but others, such as older folks or some ladies, can't.
Recovery play also has an important part to play in the strategic challenge of the game... risk and reward or safe and solid?

atb