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William_G

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2020, 09:13:30 AM »
equipment and technology have helped the game for all of us


not a fan of Bryson per se, but let's see him play in the wind or rain


let the pro tours figure it out themselves, no need to be self-righteous here about a few players


the main thing I see at my club is older folks teeing it forward not backward


cheers


PS would love to here more on TD's capitalism ideas, LOL
It's all about the golf!

John Crowley

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2020, 10:13:08 AM »
I just read an interview on Golf Digest's web site with Martin Slumbers from the R & A, who said he was concerned about how far Bryson hits it now, in terms of the bigger impact it has on golf.


But he also said that they have delayed the second part of the Distance Insights report, because the pandemic has thrown everything off kilter, and they want to give the business a chance to get its feet back on the ground first.


That's how you can tell that they are not serious about making changes.  If they wanted to make changes, what better time to make them than when everything is in upheaval?  That's exactly when capitalists pounce on the opportunity to do things they want to do.


But when you DON'T want to make changes, that's when politicians say "it's too soon" to consider new policies and that "we don't want to be reactive," or "people need time to grieve."  So we might as well start grieving, because it sounds like this report is going to limit the options for change.


Bifurcate. (Or not) I am ambivalent. Way too much emphasis on the Pro tour, as if it has much to do with our own enjoyment of the game as individuals.

William_G

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2020, 11:49:17 AM »



Bifurcate. (Or not) I am ambivalent. Way too much emphasis on the Pro tour, as if it has much to do with our own enjoyment of the game as individuals.


+1
It's all about the golf!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2020, 11:56:46 AM »

Bifurcate. (Or not) I am ambivalent. Way too much emphasis on the Pro tour, as if it has much to do with our own enjoyment of the game as individuals.


+2. Have been saying this for years.  For that matter, I think we could trifurcate or quadfurcate.  Nominate (or build new) 5 dozen PGA Tour/USGA/PGA courses as tournament courses.  Keep the championship label for any course par 72, 7000+ yards.  Introduce the recreational course, no longer than 6700 or so, add a few other classifications that obviously target senior men, women, etc.  Then rank them all, so a course in a lower category can at least claim to be a 5 star, recreational course, etc.  Just as obvious, the names would need to not be derogatory, but some brighter minds than I can do that.


On any given day, 1% play the back tees at the typical 7K+ course.  17% play from 6800 yards.  The rest play at 6300 yards or less (give or take).  Not every golf course needs to play to championship length.  Just as general menu restaurants and hotels have given way to more targeted markets (i.e., no more HOJO, more Mexican, Greek, whatever) it's time for golf to eliminate the one size fits all mentality, no?  Little league baseball has never been played on full size fields, etc.


I do know it will be a sea change.  Too many golfers are conditioned to believe 7K yards is a measure of the course, as is difficulty, even if they have no intention of ever playing that long and can't play a course that hard.  To paraphrase Churchill, never has so much golf course been built for so few.  We have to start asking why at some point.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Frank Sekulic

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2020, 12:14:23 PM »



Bifurcate. (Or not) I am ambivalent. Way too much emphasis on the Pro tour, as if it has much to do with our own enjoyment of the game as individuals.


+1




+2

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2020, 02:13:25 PM »
Bifurcation isn’t going to happen, might be nice if it did, but I don’t think so.  Baseball didn’t have to do it and I don’t see them having to build new stadiums/fields with 600ft fences to accommodate the evolution of the game.  Golf has a real problem.  WG and others don’t think the distance problem has impacted/hurt them but it has.  It is making the game more expensive for all of us.  You might only play the 6000 yard tees but there might be 1500 more yards of golf course behind you that someone had to build and maintain (and pay for).  If you play there, it is YOU who is paying for it.  College or even high school kids who hit it 330 don’t want to come play chip and putt on your 6500 yard golf course.  They will go somewhere else to play and practice. Maybe you don’t care but you should.  This impacts all of us.


On another thread I suggested 10 par threes. What is so special about par fours that you need ten of them instead?  This might be the easiest solution out there  ;)

Edward Glidewell

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2020, 02:23:22 PM »
Michael and Jay--You advocate a tournament ball, leaving the rest of us alone.  So what do you do when the R&A and the USGA do that and the Tours refuse to go along?  That is what the Tours say they will do.  So what do the rulemakers do when they can't enforce their rule.  The Tours can't be made to go along.  So isn't that where the push for change needs to be made--not toward the USGA/R&A?


It may not be worth the money for manufacturers to produce balls that are only used by the pros. That's a pretty small market all things considered.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2020, 02:37:56 PM »
Bifurcation isn’t going to happen, might be nice if it did, but I don’t think so.  Baseball didn’t have to do it and I don’t see them having to build new stadiums/fields with 600ft fences to accommodate the evolution of the game.  Golf has a real problem.  WG and others don’t think the distance problem has impacted/hurt them but it has.  It is making the game more expensive for all of us.  You might only play the 6000 yard tees but there might be 1500 more yards of golf course behind you that someone had to build and maintain (and pay for).  If you play there, it is YOU who is paying for it.  College or even high school kids who hit it 330 don’t want to come play chip and putt on your 6500 yard golf course.  They will go somewhere else to play and practice. Maybe you don’t care but you should.  This impacts all of us.


On another thread I suggested 10 par threes. What is so special about par fours that you need ten of them instead?  This might be the easiest solution out there  ;)


Isn't the equivalent little league fields, softball fields, etc?



Interesting point.  Maybe if courses charged by the yard played, golfers would more readily move up a tee!  Make the true back tee players pay more.  Someone ran the math once.  Because all would pay for greens and Fw, etc. and you might have native grasses for much of the distance from tee to fw, they thought the back tees only added 5%, maybe up to 10% more in maintenance costs.  While that doesn't sound like a lot, if you say the maintenance budget went from $1M to $1.05 or $1.1 Million for the 400-1000 extra yards above 6800 from the next tees, I think many courses are looking for ways to save $100K per year in maintenance to balance the books.


Yes, some top players (still less than 1% of golfers, maybe less than 0.1%) will go somewhere else.  If it is 1% of 30,000 golfers, that is 30 golfers a year.  If they pay $100 per golfer, or $3000 in revenue, that is less than the minimal 5% cost extra for their yardage.  $50,000-$3,000 is a $47,000 net gain for the course, assuming all savings are implemented.


As to your par 3 concepts, I have long thought the par 4 was the most efficient golf hole.  A set up shot to determine what conditions you have on the approach that might affect your score, followed by an approach shot (the key shot) that determines how many putts you might take.


The second shot on a par 5 is inherently less interesting, because there is rarely a need to set up the set up shot. 


And, on par 3 holes, you get to play the key shot, but more or less dictated as the same exact condition for you and your partners (assuming you play the same tee.)  It is one less chance to differentiate yourself, which of course is the name of the game on any hole, particularly in match play.  I gathered the 3, 5 hole types were found necessary for connections on other holes, or lack/extra land somewhere.  Maybe someone said, "Par 4 holes are great, but in the name of variety, lets make a few par 3 and par 5."  A few somehow morphed into a standard 4 each in most cases.


The easier case to make is get rid of at least 2 par 5 holes (USGA has been doing it for 50 years or so in tourneys).


I did have a client who wanted to build a "second shot" course, all par 3 holes, but each time you went around (it was 9 holes) you played from a different area.  Not a tee, per se, more like a fw, and you lined up left right, sidehill Left to Sidehill Right, etc..  The goal was to teach you the ramifications and advantages of placing your tee shots to different locations in an effort to educate on strategy.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 02:48:05 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2020, 03:20:36 PM »
MF
"Bifurcation isn’t going to happen, might be nice if it did, but I don’t think so."

[/size]
[/size]Who cares?
[/size]
[/size] "Baseball didn’t have to do it", huh?
[/size]Aluminum bats?
[/size]
[/size] "and I don’t see them having to build new stadiums/fields with 600ft fences to accommodate the evolution of the game.  Golf has a real problem.  WG and others don’t think the distance problem has impacted/hurt them but it has.  It is making the game more expensive for all of us.  [/size]You might only play the 6000 yard tees but there might be 1500 more yards of golf course behind you that someone had to build and maintain (and pay for). "
[/size]
[/size]Where is this? and please be specific.
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]If you play there, it is YOU who is paying for it.  College or even high school kids who hit it 330 don’t want to come play chip and putt on your 6500 yard golf course.  They will go somewhere else to play and practice. Maybe you don’t care but you should.  This impacts all of us.
[/size]
[/size]yes it would mean a little less play on the courses most people play, sweet!
[/size]
[/size]cheers
[/size]

It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2020, 03:45:27 PM »
like Tiger said today, it's the straightness that Bryson has figured out for himself


it's like "Iron Bryson"


cheers
It's all about the golf!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2020, 04:06:48 PM »
Indeed, the elimination of the angle between the arms and club allow him to rip it without a loss of accuracy.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2020, 04:32:54 PM »
Asking the question from the other side, what would have to be true for Bryson not to try his new strategy?


  • If the driver head were limited in size?  At 400cc I think he still would, 300cc I'm not so sure.
  • If he only played links courses in the UK?  I think his strategy could be even more successful, but it might be win or bust on bad weather weeks
  • If the ball changed to go shorter or spin more?  It depends, a shorter ball that effects players linearly would still make him successful.  A spinny ball might stop him.
  • If he only played US Open set ups with thick rough?  He would probably win there too.
I'm not sure what this teaches us, but I'm not sure any change to courses/set ups materially changes how he is trying to play the game. 




Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2020, 05:03:09 PM »
Michael and Jay--You advocate a tournament ball, leaving the rest of us alone.  So what do you do when the R&A and the USGA do that and the Tours refuse to go along?  That is what the Tours say they will do.  So what do the rulemakers do when they can't enforce their rule.  The Tours can't be made to go along.  So isn't that where the push for change needs to be made--not toward the USGA/R&A?


It may not be worth the money for manufacturers to produce balls that are only used by the pros. That's a pretty small market all things considered.







They used to - and advertised it.


From a Titleist advertisement mid 1970s.


"Spin makes the DT Titleist a longer ball off the tee. In fact it's the only ball that's every yard as long as our balata cover Titleist - the balls the pros play."




My guess is they could afford it then and they could more easily afford it now. The profit margins on todays stones must be astronomical when competed with a wound balata ball

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2020, 05:26:16 PM »
there was no wind last week, and he just striped most everything
love to see some wind etc... and it's effect on his game as Iron Bryson
It's all about the golf!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2020, 05:35:41 PM »
Michael and Jay--You advocate a tournament ball, leaving the rest of us alone.  So what do you do when the R&A and the USGA do that and the Tours refuse to go along?  That is what the Tours say they will do.  So what do the rulemakers do when they can't enforce their rule.  The Tours can't be made to go along.  So isn't that where the push for change needs to be made--not toward the USGA/R&A?
It may not be worth the money for manufacturers to produce balls that are only used by the pros. That's a pretty small market all things considered.
They used to - and advertised it.
From a Titleist advertisement mid 1970s.
"Spin makes the DT Titleist a longer ball off the tee. In fact it's the only ball that's every yard as long as our balata cover Titleist - the balls the pros play."
My guess is they could afford it then and they could more easily afford it now. The profit margins on todays stones must be astronomical when competed with a wound balata ball


Per the attached from the USGA - a 62 page list of conforming golf balls and an updated listing each month. Presumably such a listing wouldn’t need to be updated each month if there weren’t new additions each month. ‘Prototypes’. And each of the major manufacturers has dozens of entries. Okay some might be minor cosmetic etc changes but I doubt all will be.
See - https://www.usga.org/ConformingGolfBall/gball_list.pdf

It’s been reported off and on for a years that different elite players play slightly different versions or year of the same ball, the one that suits them personally the best.
Which would kind of suggest that there must be dozens of different versions of similar but unique or semi-unique balls in storage rooms and cupboards and shelves on tour trucks.

The manufacturers are savvy. Even though they might deny it and might not want it, they know what might be coming. I can’t imagine they haven’t done a whole bunch of R&D and economic evaluations ahead of time. And from a business point of view dark clouds for the streetwise and a savvy can have silver linings.
Atb
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:31:18 AM by Thomas Dai »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2020, 05:37:22 PM »
WG,
Aluminum bats definitely help but they don’t seem to make the game that different as the best college players that end up in the pros are playing on the same size fields with no issues.  No one talks about 600ft homeruns that I am aware of.  If you play a course at 6000 yards, any course that has tees longer than that is costing you money.  As Jeff points out less than 1% play the back tees but unfortunately that 1% is very influential or those tees wouldn’t be there nor would all that extra acreage of golf course that goes with it.  Yes you probably don’t care if that kid that hits it 330 goes somewhere else to play, unless that kid is your own.  I try to talk clubs out of adding new back tees all the time for all the obvious reasons. These days I am building more forward tees (thank goodness), but I still have to deal with that 1% that doesn’t want their course reduced to clip and putt for that small number of times their course will see play from the big hitters. 

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2020, 06:05:48 PM »
Mark,  Major league baseball determined that the game was mature so it continued to require wooden bats.  Its a badly kept secret that the ball gets tweaked from time to time and the mound gets raised and lowered but for the most part, the major league equB players to use metal or composite bats you would likely need 600 foot fences and pitchers and infielders would be in even more danger than now.  The impact is clear, one of the key scouting areas are "wooden bat" tourneys for prospects or wooden bat leagues like the Cape Cod League.  Interestingly, pitching changes significantly with wooden bats as pitchers are more likely to throw inside inorder to saw off the wooden handles.

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2020, 06:23:36 PM »
I wouldn't call him Iron Bryson per se.

Yes, he's number 1 on tour in Driving Distance, but 110th in Accuracy.

He knows Accuracy doesn't mean squat on tour, just another data point to confirm that length isn't everything...its the only thing, and that's the actual point.

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2020, 06:38:45 PM »

I don’t see the need to change anything. What is the problem?


What the pros score is of no interest.  Lowest score always wins, whatever it happens to be. Par is just a number.


Good players will always hit it farther.


If private clubs see the need, for vanity reasons, to lengthen their course "to protect par", so be it.  It’s their money.  Economics will sort it out.


Great old courses will remain great courses.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2020, 06:45:21 PM »
You mean great old "private" course like Bethpage Black that has been disfigured worse than Joan Rivers?

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2020, 06:56:31 PM »
So I come at this differently due to my weird background


I don’t want to see different rules.


But I don't want to see Great courses bastardized either.


Obviously this is (largely) a top level of players issue.  Not just tour pros, but high level players that seem to be driving the real concerns


I also believe that truly testing tour pros would almost require a different “stadium”


More par threes to require more clubs used on approaches. Lower par because of this.


Also shallower targets for hole locations for these events. Not greens more shallow per se but shallow targets within complexes


In my very unscientific opinion. Distance control with all the low spinning demands is not as good as it was   
Watch Tiger in Japan and his control on approaches. He also plays a “spinny” ball. FWIW


Tighten the demands on distance control

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2020, 09:29:55 PM »
The “ball problem” only exists with high level amateur and professional tournament golf. Just create new specs for a “tournament” ball and leave the rest of us alone. Watching the pros has been like watching a different game for me for a long time. Stop trying to pretend that we are playing the same game. Let us hacks have all the help we can get and put the limits on the tournament guys.
Unfortunately there are lots of big, strong 15-40 yr old amateurs who hit it as far or nearly as far as the elite players but are not tournament players, indeed not even close to being at that level. Elite and tournament players however, generally know the direction the ball is going to go. Your big, strong 15-40 old amateurs tend not to know where the ball's going to go, likely quite the opposite, and they thrash away frequently hitting it miles off-target, which is dangerous. And there are lots of these big, strong amateurs, and they are getting bigger and stronger every year.
The future ........?

atb


five thoughts as I read the thread
1.The R&A mentioning Bryson in ANY discussion about how far the ball goes completely undermines their credibility, and weakens the argument.
Bryson earned the extra yards he's achieved in the last half year via technique and body change.
The rest of the 110+mph clubhead speed crowd was gifted 40 yards by multilayer balls, long/light shafts and thin faced rebounding drivers 15-20 years ago.
2.I am truly amazed at how many are sooo worried about losing their hot balls and hot clubs.
Chances are pretty good most posting here wouldn't lose a whole lot because they lack the clubhead speed to gain the full benefits of the rebound and two piece balls were always available.
3.I grow very weary of hearing "scores haven't dropped in 20 years"
Of course they have-there are more single digit handicappers, than ever, more plus handicaps than ever or waaaayyy more good players, and the scores they shoot every week on TOUR are stupid low-on every tour and mini tour
There will always be horrific golfers and there will always be beginners and bad golfers-that does not mean golfers have not improved-they have.
4. Golf is healthier than it's been in along time during the pandemic-I have not heard one pro in any part of the country tell me otherwise.(I'm all ears to hear if I'm wrong on this) Other than knucklehead University endowed/owned courses that can't figure out they should be open and printing money like every other course.
5. why make all the crazy changes suggested on this thread when the solution is to simply reverse the tech that created it(if you believe ther's a problem-if you don't I'm cool with that too)


Just played Shennecossett in a two day event.
Fiery fairways and greens-super firm.
Interesting, well designed greens with some sloped away form play, false fronts, false backs, volcano hole.
Great hole locations made the event a blast-angles, driving in the fairway, using the ground, distance control-amazing how fun it is and doubt anyone in the field would've shot any higher with a wooden driver-just would've used it more. ;)




« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 09:40:33 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2020, 04:04:42 AM »
The oft repeated suggestion that distance is only an issue for the pros is, as Thomas Dai says above, incorrect.  The adoption of it as mantra is not helpful to the debate.  In the 70s/80s a handful of tour events were played at The Northumberland.  The first there is a 340 yard par 4, doglegging right, playing (for me) down into a dip and then back up.  Most players will play down into the dip with anything from a long iron to a driver, depending on their length, and then hit anything from a wedge to a mid-iron up to the green, again depending on the player.


When the pros were there 40 odd years ago, a handful would try to drive the green (it's shorter than that 340 yards because of the dogleg and often has a following wind, though there is a slope up to the green).  Famously (at least at the club, and quite possibly mythically!) in one round Greg Norman hit OOB, then hit the green with his second drive and holed the put for par.  What is certain is that only the very longest contemplated hitting driver.


Now, all the good young players have a go.  I have seen both my 21 year old twins, off handicaps of 15 and 25, drive it past the green.  12 years ago, my eldest son played a round with Garrick Porteous (then British Amateur champion) who hit a 3 wood off the first tee onto the racecourse behind the green and chipped back.  I can't see how any of this is good for golf.


Nor can I see how de-skilling the game at the very top (no-one thinks DeChambeau can hit a long iron as well as Tiger or Rory but it doesn't matter, long irons are obsolete) adds to the excitement.  If I want to see someone hit 300+ yard bombs, there are several lads at my own club I can watch.  What I want to see is exceptional skill and, particularly, exceptional ball striking.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2020, 04:36:46 AM »
Well said Mark.
atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Distance Insights report
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2020, 06:12:22 AM »
The oft repeated suggestion that distance is only an issue for the pros is, as Thomas Dai says above, incorrect.  The adoption of it as mantra is not helpful to the debate.  In the 70s/80s a handful of tour events were played at The Northumberland.  The first there is a 340 yard par 4, doglegging right, playing (for me) down into a dip and then back up.  Most players will play down into the dip with anything from a long iron to a driver, depending on their length, and then hit anything from a wedge to a mid-iron up to the green, again depending on the player.


When the pros were there 40 odd years ago, a handful would try to drive the green (it's shorter than that 340 yards because of the dogleg and often has a following wind, though there is a slope up to the green).  Famously (at least at the club, and quite possibly mythically!) in one round Greg Norman hit OOB, then hit the green with his second drive and holed the put for par.  What is certain is that only the very longest contemplated hitting driver.


Now, all the good young players have a go.  I have seen both my 21 year old twins, off handicaps of 15 and 25, drive it past the green.  12 years ago, my eldest son played a round with Garrick Porteous (then British Amateur champion) who hit a 3 wood off the first tee onto the racecourse behind the green and chipped back.  I can't see how any of this is good for golf.


Nor can I see how de-skilling the game at the very top (no-one thinks DeChambeau can hit a long iron as well as Tiger or Rory but it doesn't matter, long irons are obsolete) adds to the excitement.  If I want to see someone hit 300+ yard bombs, there are several lads at my own club I can watch.  What I want to see is exceptional skill and, particularly, exceptional ball striking.


Well said.
i certainly wonder how anyone can endorse a restoration at a course when shot values have skewed so much due to tech.
It would seem a sympathetic interpretative "renovation" would be the only way to restore original strategies and shot values if one wants to go with the supposed mantra of "architectural intent".
But the same could be said of the changes in fairway and green slopes due to ever increasing faster, tighter turf speeds(what some would call "advances")
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 07:20:58 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey