Will divots decide The Memorial?

[Jonathan Mallard]

I had an exchange on the board with Patrick Burke about the 3rd hole at Carnoustie. Specifically the concentration of divots in an area where the majority of the field plays to, particularly on a layup shot. Pat added the areas on par 5s where the field will tend to lay up to as well.


How might that affect play this week at the Memorial?


I would think that the probability of a tee shot coming to rest in a divot would have the highest chance of happening at 14, but I can see where it might come into play on other holes as well.


What are some other folks thoughts?

[jeffwarne]

less divots 350 out in the rough.


#3 could be a problem

[Mark_Fine]

It is rub of the green but I was thinking the same.  We had a similar discussion weeks ago about Rolling Green and all balls rolling back off the false fronts into divots.  All they can do at The Memorial is make sure the divots are filled.  These guys are so good hopefully it doesn’t come into play too much. 

[Kyle Harris]

If only there were an area one could practice shots from a divot.

[Joe Bausch]

If only there were an area one could practice shots from a divot.

Haven’t been to one of those places in years!   

[Kalen Braley]

If only there was a rule that correctly declared divots as Ground Under Repair...

[Mark_Fine]

Play it as it lies is a great rule but I wonder why you are allowed to touch/clean your ball on the green?  If it rolls back or stays in its pitch mark on the green you can fix that as well?  Wonder why and when this rule came into play?  If you are a foot off the front of the green in the approach or fairway or collar you can’t touch anything but everything changes on the green.  Interesting rule?

[Kalen Braley]

Play it as it lies is a great rule but I wonder why you are allowed to touch/clean your ball on the green?  If it rolls back or stays in its pitch mark on the green you can fix that as well?  Wonder why and when this rule came into play?  If you are a foot off the front of the green in the approach or fairway or collar you can’t touch anything but everything changes on the green.  Interesting rule?

Correct Mark,

That's because greens are specially prepared areas, (unlike fairways ) for snowflakes who need a perfectly smooth surface...

[JESII]

I am always fascinated by the things that change an event like yesterday. A divot is certainly something that could.


Yesterday, both THomas and Morikawa played plenty of phenomenal golf but also each made plenty of mistakes so there was a ton of movement through the day.


On 17, Morikawa is 30ish yards behond Thomas but both shots are pretty easy, barring the situation. Morikawas caddy's last comment was "1 yard right of it". He flares it a bit right, bit a downwind 8 iron is only going a litle offline and it lands about 25 feet right of the pin catching a very nice bounce/spin/roll to the left to maybe 10 feet.


Thomas hit it absolutely right down the target he had but it checked straight and came backwards (not sideways) leaving 12 - 15 feet. Easy enough putt, but putting first and giving a little help on the line, he misses and Morikawa made (his putt would have gone into a shot glass).


Now Thomas is on 18 tee having gone from 3 ahead to 1 ahead in 25 minutes and has to be feeling a little weak. Considering the shots he hit on 18 in regulation, I'd say he felt extremely weak...


Great player and an absolute assassin, but he spit the bit a little yesterday.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I had an exchange on the board with Patrick Burke about the 3rd hole at Carnoustie. Specifically the concentration of divots in an area where the majority of the field plays to, particularly on a layup shot. Pat added the areas on par 5s where the field will tend to lay up to as well.


How might that affect play this week at the Memorial?


I would think that the probability of a tee shot coming to rest in a divot would have the highest chance of happening at 14, but I can see where it might come into play on other holes as well.


What are some other folks thoughts?

At one time, fairway divots were plugged out every evening because of Nicklaus' feeling on divots & ground under repair. I know Augusta does this on tees.

[Lou_Duran]

Play it as it lies is a great rule but I wonder why you are allowed to touch/clean your ball on the green?  If it rolls back or stays in its pitch mark on the green you can fix that as well?  Wonder why and when this rule came into play?  If you are a foot off the front of the green in the approach or fairway or collar you can’t touch anything but everything changes on the green.  Interesting rule?

You can get relief if the ball embeds in its pitch mark off the green as well.


It is a slippery slope thing with the rules.  It seems grossly unfair to hit a good shot that ends in a divot.  Yet, for most pros and top tier amateurs, they seem to hit some of their best shots from difficult lies.


I don't know that a good divot rule is possible, though it is the #1 gripe I hear from players of all types.  What constitutes a "divot" and at what point does it cease to exist and become just another irregularity in the surface?  How about balls that end up in a cupped lie or low spots from french drains and irrigation lines?  Shouldn't they receive similar relief consideration?  Will the relaxation of the rules in the name of fairness end up with rolling the ball anywhere on the course?  How about allowing seniors to tee it up anywhere in the general area?   


#18 at MV is one of the most awkward holes I've played on a great course.  Not a big fan of #10 either where you have to bang it into a well-bunkered LZ, often into the wind.  The extra trees planted on the right are double jeopardy with high rough.  Justin would have paid good money to be in a deep divot in the fairway instead.   

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,

How do you know when something is a ball mark on the green?  And not just an imperfection or a small bare area?

Golf is full of rules that require judgement. 

[Peter Flory]

At least the divots will be pointing toward the green.  These guys have such aggressive attack angles that it doesn't seem to bother them too much. 

[JESII]

Considering the recent change to fixing imperfections on the green, I expect a divot rule in the next couple of cycles.

[Lou_Duran]

Not an issue.  Any imperfection on a green can be repaired.  In the past, if it was inconclusive- ball mark or something else, you'd look over to your opponent or other players in the group for an opinion.  From my experience, conflict avoidance ruled for the most part in favor of it being a ball mark.


The rules do require judgement as well as knowledge, honesty, and fair intent.  Perhaps this is a reason for the large quantity and specificity of the rules.  The more I play the game and think about it, the more I am inclined to believe that the game is better just playing the ball as you find it with very few relief options and a single way to put the ball in play- placing it, say within two club lengths. 

[Pete_Pittock]

If only there was a rule that correctly declared divots as Ground Under Repair...

or incorrectly declared them thusly.

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,

Yes, spike marks or indentations are now included in the new rules...however not everything may be legally repaired.  There is still a degree of judgement required. 

"Golfers are now allowed to repair almost any damage on the green, such as spike marks, ball-marks, indentations from a club or flagstick, and animal damage. They are not permitted to repair aeration holes, natural surface imperfections, or natural wear of the hole."

When/if golf ever gets rid of the special rules on the green, or implements a divot rule, at least then it will be consistent.

[Lou_Duran]

At the tournament or competition level, which is what I thought we were addressing, there are no aeration holes and so-called imperfections to speak of- I once worked a local US Open qualifier early in the season where there were so many bare spots on the greens, some with shallow holes where water had gathered,  that the official in charge didn't have enough paint to mark all of them so he marked none.  Rub of the green- no repairing.  Some golfers whined.  As I recall, the medalist shot 63 and it took more than a couple under to go to the sectionals.


At the club level for daily play, tapping down aeration holes near the cup is fairly standard.  I doubt that anyone makes the distinction in the relatively rare cases where the mark has a "natural" origin.  Fixing friable hole edges is the rule, not the exception, but this is not a big problem at the tournament level where moisture is maintained, holes are cut in identified locations with care, and the edges often painted.  Over the years, I've been called as an official to fix hole damage but a handful of times.  These sort of exceptions don't rise to the level of getting relief from a divot which would happen regularly.  I'd be surprised if divot relief will be instituted, but who knows in these times?

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,

Understandable, the conversation certainly started there, but I was thinking more about daily play, as pro tournaments are effectively bifurcated where rules official are at the beckon call to make a ruling if need be.

Your comment about aeration holes being tapped down is really the point.  Golf is chock full of rules breakers, most of the time probably not even maliciously, just being unaware of the specifics of the rules.  And the violations are in abundance, asking a partner which club they hit, taking an improper drop, not taking the walk of shame without a provisional, improperly marking the ball on the green, too many clubs in the bag, etc, etc...not to mention the willful cheaters who use foot wedges, forget to count a gimmie as a stroke, or play with non-confirming balls.

In the spirit of consistent rules, is it really asking that much to designate divots as GUR, and implement a rule that would have an actual positive effect in the playing of the game?  Yes pros can often handle them easy, but Johnny Weekend finally stripes one down the middle, and its in a big divot as a reward and skulls the next one over the green.  Yes its a fairness argument, but as I understand it, being able to fix ball marks or other damage on the green is also a rule of fairness is it not?

[Tom_Doak]

I'm on Lou's side here !


Whatever happened to "These guys are good" ?  Most of them can handle a divot no problem.


The problem is . . . all that money they are playing for.  They all play 72 holes and they'll all roll into four or five divots somewhere over the course of four days, but the last guy to roll into one on 17 or 18 is seen as getting "a terrible break" that should be equalized by fixing all divots all the time?


The PGA Tour does not need to play by winter rules.

[Lou_Duran]

I think that the liberalization of the rules have gone far enough, though I would like to simplify a few things for taking free and penalty relief- two club lengths for both, placed with no delays (hold barely above ground for an instant and let go).  As noted, I think that defining divots as ACC or GUR creates many more problems than it solves.


Daily play is largely governed by whatever rules each group wishes to adopt.  Not playing in many handicap events, I am not bothered by whatever inaccuracy this creates- if I play strictly by the rules and others don't, that should work to my benefit.


There will never be an ideal set of rules simply because golf's BWT.  Ditto for all the discussion of distance, bifurcation, "fairness", etc.  I hate to be so trite, but golf is what it is.  Play it down and enjoy all of its irregularities, inconsistencies, and the occasional good streaks of luck.

[JohnVDB]

Considering the recent change to fixing imperfections on the green, I expect a divot rule in the next couple of cycles.

Don't hold your breath.  That was never even considered during the Rules review process.

[JohnVDB]

The PGA Tour does not need to play by winter rules.

But they do more than any other organization.  A chance of rain over 50%, preferred lies.

[JESII]

Hi John!


Perhaps it would be easy enough for me to research, but do you know any of the thought process behind letting players fix any imperfection on the green other than that caused by maintenance? What was the epiphany (for lack of a better word...)?

[JohnVDB]

The two primary principles of the Rules are 1) Play the course as you find it and 2) Play the ball as it lies.
Balls in divots are covered by #2.  Damage on the putting green is really an issue for #1.   The feeling that the putting green is a special place where the ball is rolled on the ground has led to the loosening of that principle on the green.  Partly because the ruling bodies want to ensure that people on the putting green get similar conditions and partly because we want greens to be repaired.
The previous Rules allowed for some damage caused by golfers to be repaired on the putting green.  It was felt that if we should be able to repair some damage, we should be able to repair all damage caused by golfers.  But, things like aeration holes are due to normal maintenance and it would be impossible as well as incredibly slow to allow them all to be repaired, although there is a Local Rule that gives relief when the ball comes to rest in one.  Also damage due to nature such as diseases can't be repaired.  Basically, the greens should play the same for the last player as they do for the first player.
As for relief from divots in fairway, you don't always end up in the fairway as the result of a good shot.  As a hypothetical example, let's say Justin's drive on the final playoff hole had hit the tree and bounced into a divot in the fairway.  Should he get relief?  And what if Collin's drive had hit a sprinkler head took a big bounce into the rough and ended up in one.  Should he be required to play from the divot?
We often say the word "fair" doesn't appear in the Rules.  Most of the complications in the Rules come from trying to be fair.
I've played about 35 round so far this year and I've been in one divot in a fairway and it was so shallow that it really didn't matter (other than in my head).

Hard luck has to start somewhere.