Dartmouth Cuts Men's and Women's Golf Team and Closes Golf Course

[V_Halyard]

My Alma Mater.
Sad, I suspect a trend. Infuriating really. The irony, there was a town and alumni collective with funding to purchase the land. It is unclear what the college will do with the property. There are obvious development opportunities for the land starved university.
Not surprising as the Regional Master Plan made no mention of the golf course so there have been suspicions. 
COVID provided the air cover for consolidation.  Hard to fight this even with money...


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2020/07/09/dartmouth-cuts-golf-closes-hanover-country-club-covid-budget-cuts/

[Tim Martin]

Some capable hands on the course over the years in Orrin Smith, Ralph Barton and Ron Pritchard. It’s one I had the opportunity to play and am sorry that I didn’t find a day over the last couple of years. The Ivy golf program’s of Brown and Dartmouth are now gone which doesn't portend well for the conference going forward. It will be way easier now for any of the remaining Ivy schools that might be on the fence to follow suit.

[jeffwarne]

On the other side of the coin(after expressing my disappointment for Brown golfers)
The Ivy league seems an odd place to start but...
with the ever rising cost of college, it has to be a bit frustrating for a cash strapped, working student to see costs ever rising and a multitude of sports considered "varsity" that are hardly "major" sports, and are sometimes populated by students relatively new to the sport.
perhaps most non revenue producing sports (nearly all) DO belong at the club level with the costs born by the participants, not the student body in general.(with many colleges quite near financial disaster already)
And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

On the other side of the coin(after expressing my disappointment for Brown golfers)
The Ivy league seems an odd place to start but...
with the ever rising cost of college, it has to be a bit frustrating for a cash strapped, working student to see costs ever rising and a multitude of sports considered "varsity" that are hardly "major" sports, and are sometimes populated by students relatively new to the sport.
perhaps most non revenue producing sports (nearly all) DO belong at the club level with the costs born by the participants, not the student body in general.(with many colleges quite near financial disaster already)
And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

Totally agree. If the sport can't sustain itself it shouldn't be supported by the tuition of the 99% who can't play college sports. Its not like high school where most can find an athletic endeavor and get the benefit of exercise.

[Rick Shefchik]

Sad news, but apparently inevitable -- and definitely a harbinger of things to come at other colleges and universities.


I played Hanover CC many times as an undergrad, and really appreciated Ron Prichard's improvements on my most recent visit. Local golfers will now have to go 12 miles down the road to Montcalm Golf Club, a ritzy modern course that lacks Hanover CC's character and lore.

Here's a link to a piece I wrote about the course for the Dartmouth Alumni Magazine in 2014:  https://dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/articles/par-course

[Buck Wolter]

Maybe an opportunity for 'golf' to step into the breach -- as Football changes through parents pulling kids out at an early age and Covid restrictions, non-revenue sports have to have a Plan B. Club golf seems to be an interesting area for growth or to get more involvement.


https://nextgengolf.org/college-golf/nccga/

[Ben Stephens]

Oh dear! thats not good I have a family friend who is an alma mater of Dartmouth and has done a lot of fundraising for the College and I have been to Hanover a few times in the past and only had a glimpse of the golf course which looked really good quality compared with the courses in the UK.


I hope the golf course stays and not left alone/overgrown for a couple of months like what happened at Yale.

[Mark Stewart]

On the other side of the coin(after expressing my disappointment for Brown golfers)
The Ivy league seems an odd place to start but...
with the ever rising cost of college, it has to be a bit frustrating for a cash strapped, working student to see costs ever rising and a multitude of sports considered "varsity" that are hardly "major" sports, and are sometimes populated by students relatively new to the sport.
perhaps most non revenue producing sports (nearly all) DO belong at the club level with the costs born by the participants, not the student body in general.(with many colleges quite near financial disaster already)
And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

Not reaching at all. No sports=no sports scholarships=less incentive for year round specialization.

[Tom_Doak]

Not reaching at all. No sports=no sports scholarships=less incentive for year round specialization.

Yes but you'd be stomping on the New American Dream*


* the dream that you might be able to send your kid to an "elite" school without bankrupting yourself, so that he or she can achieve the Old American Dream

[Jeff Schley]

And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

Jeff this is so very important yes.
I call it prouth (pro / youth) sports and has gradually eroded the pureness of youth team sports. Where one is a part of a larger group, intent to perform their role, or (heaven forbid) support those other team members who are playing for the good of the team while others sit at the ready. There is value in learning how to support others, for in our jobs the focus isn't on us all the time and most organizations don't want prima donnas. They avoid them. Teamwork, cooperation, communication is needed to thrive in most jobs so why should parents only seek out the limelight for their child in recreation pursuits? It is ok to not be the star and play a role, give compliments and support to your teammates. Usually there is a ball or implement of some kind and only one, so if you always need the ball to be happy you won't last in most jobs.


I don't live in the states and although I greatly value sports and enjoyed them while growing up and subsequently went into college coaching myself, I have a more worldly view of their importance now perhaps. The rest of the world doesn't give a crap about what travel team someone played on to make it to the world series and was named all tournament at 13. They certainly couldn't care less about how someone's family gave up every summer weekend to travel 6-12 hours in their car for tournaments around the country. All with the goal of earning an athletic scholarship (fingers crossed).

In the states sports are valued (over-valued IMO) and to put on your resume that you played collegiate sports is probably a plus for it demonstrates commitment, teamwork (if a team sport), and being able to prioritize and balance education/sports. Overall a plus. In the rest of the world (if you care about that), it isn't even a blip on the radar. What is your education, qualifications technically, language ability (important and valued), background of living/working in multicultural environments, recommendations from previous supervisors or perhaps one of your executives. What dominated someone's youth to get them a university scholarship (again fingers crossed) doesn't come up. I'm of the belief that children would benefit from a more well rounded adolescence, where one activity doesn't dominate their after school hours/summers. Go to camps, learn a language, play an instrument, volunteer, cub scouts, brownies, active in your church, or just be a kid and play video games/text whatever.

[Tim Martin]

And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

or just be a kid and play video games/text whatever.

Jeff-Do you really think that playing video games and texting is the alternative to youth sports? I for one would disagree.

[V_Halyard]

On the other side of the coin(after expressing my disappointment for Brown golfers)
The Ivy league seems an odd place to start but...
with the ever rising cost of college, it has to be a bit frustrating for a cash strapped, working student to see costs ever rising and a multitude of sports considered "varsity" that are hardly "major" sports, and are sometimes populated by students relatively new to the sport.
perhaps most non revenue producing sports (nearly all) DO belong at the club level with the costs born by the participants, not the student body in general.(with many colleges quite near financial disaster already)
And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

100% Valid point. And agree. 
The frustrating complexity is that there were efforts and offers to independently fund not only the course as well as a master plan and creative programming that expanded access to golf across public and collegiate and alumni communities, and expanded the demographic reach. This could have off loaded the financial burden from the college P&L. An alumni national membership drive was forecast to potentially resolve operating cash flow by itself.


It is a completely valid observation that golf in Hanover was an outlier with a short season.  Historically, HCC was a recreational  resource to the town and provided first access to golf to students across a diversity of backgrounds, to Tuck business schoolers about to enter the fray.

The surprise announcement has fueled community and alumni unrest given there were proposals addressing financial shortcomings, outlining pathways to heal the ills, and expand the game across the community.
Tough times. Hard to know the insider deal and financial stress but there were options.
In the end, it’s prime collegiate real estate. Some schools value golf as core to their experience more than others.

[Jeff Schley]

And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

or just be a kid and play video games/text whatever.

Jeff-Do you really think that playing video games and texting is the alternative to youth sports? I for one would disagree.

Tim,
How are you doing buddy?  I hope well.
I'll keep this short, as I recall your preference. I think kids should have time to spend however they want (that doesn't do themselves or others harm). When I grew up it wasn't structured youth sports every day of the summer. I doubt yours was either. It was self organized activity.  Some of that time was with the Atari/Nintendo, some was spent on the phone talking to girls. Church camps, or quite a bit was just neighborhood kids playing kick the can, whiffle ball, reading, doing chores. Yeah, the last one we all probably remember having to do chores. Me, my brother and sister were the cleaning lady, lawn crew, laundromat or whatever was needed. I think just about all my friends and family growing up had significant chores to do, I believe we were better for it in the end, although at the time we probably didn't want to do it.

Question then to you Tim.  Do you think youth sports should be the only activity children should participate in and unless pursued the alternatives are deemed no value? I, one of many I'm sure, would disagree.

[John Crowley]

Sad news, but apparently inevitable -- and definitely a harbinger of things to come at other colleges and universities.


I played Hanover CC many times as an undergrad, and really appreciated Ron Prichard's improvements on my most recent visit. Local golfers will now have to go 12 miles down the road to Montcalm Golf Club, a ritzy modern course that lacks Hanover CC's character and lore.

Here's a link to a piece I wrote about the course for the Dartmouth Alumni Magazine in 2014:  https://dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/articles/par-course

Rick,
The course may be going but what you have written will preserve its memory.
As usual, by you, excellent writing and an entertaining read!
ATB, John

[Tim Martin]

And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

or just be a kid and play video games/text whatever.

Jeff-Do you really think that playing video games and texting is the alternative to youth sports? I for one would disagree.

Tim,
How are you doing buddy?  I hope well.
I'll keep this short, as I recall your preference. I think kids should have time to spend however they want (that doesn't do themselves or others harm). When I grew up it wasn't structured youth sports every day of the summer. I doubt yours was either. It was self organized activity.  Some of that time was with the Atari/Nintendo, some was spent on the phone talking to girls. Church camps, or quite a bit was just neighborhood kids playing kick the can, whiffle ball, reading, doing chores. Yeah, the last one we all probably remember having to do chores. Me, my brother and sister were the cleaning lady, lawn crew, laundromat or whatever was needed. I think just about all my friends and family growing up had significant chores to do, I believe we were better for it in the end, although at the time we probably didn't want to do it.

Question then to you Tim.  Do you think youth sports should be the only activity children should participate in and unless pursued the alternatives are deemed no value? I, one of many I'm sure, would disagree.

Jeff-Was Andy still the sheriff when you were growing up in Mayberry?

[Carl Nichols]

Sad news, but apparently inevitable -- and definitely a harbinger of things to come at other colleges and universities.


I played Hanover CC many times as an undergrad, and really appreciated Ron Prichard's improvements on my most recent visit. Local golfers will now have to go 12 miles down the road to Montcalm Golf Club, a ritzy modern course that lacks Hanover CC's character and lore.

Here's a link to a piece I wrote about the course for the Dartmouth Alumni Magazine in 2014:  https://dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/articles/par-course

Rick--


Terrific article; I remember seeing it a few years ago.  Brought back some great memories.


As for the Prichard changes, I thought they improved the course a bit, but not a ton, in part because a couple of the new holes seemed out of character with the existing holes.  Either way, probably not a great ROI for that $3M.

[Sean_A]

And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

or just be a kid and play video games/text whatever.

Jeff-Do you really think that playing video games and texting is the alternative to youth sports? I for one would disagree.

It would be interesting to read the evidence behind the idea that the world is a more dangerous place for children today. 

Jeff

+1 on the idea of most college sports becoming "club" sports. 

Ciao

[Don Mahaffey]

On the other side of the coin(after expressing my disappointment for Brown golfers)
The Ivy league seems an odd place to start but...
with the ever rising cost of college, it has to be a bit frustrating for a cash strapped, working student to see costs ever rising and a multitude of sports considered "varsity" that are hardly "major" sports, and are sometimes populated by students relatively new to the sport.
perhaps most non revenue producing sports (nearly all) DO belong at the club level with the costs born by the participants, not the student body in general.(with many colleges quite near financial disaster already)
And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

Hmmm...well if all that goes into building a team- commitment, disciple, team before the individual is no longer considered “educational”, and if the litmus test for a college activity or class is now going to be “pay for itself” then the cuts need to be broad and deep.
Do we really need liberal arts? History? My guess is if we take a look at the Dartmouth curriculum, we could all find a program or two that has no “real” value. The world doesn’t need anymore “elites” like educated college professors anyhow.

[Sean_A]

On the other side of the coin(after expressing my disappointment for Brown golfers)
The Ivy league seems an odd place to start but...
with the ever rising cost of college, it has to be a bit frustrating for a cash strapped, working student to see costs ever rising and a multitude of sports considered "varsity" that are hardly "major" sports, and are sometimes populated by students relatively new to the sport.
perhaps most non revenue producing sports (nearly all) DO belong at the club level with the costs born by the participants, not the student body in general.(with many colleges quite near financial disaster already)
And perhaps youth sports could return to a reasonable perspective(OK now I'm reaching)

Hmmm...well if all that goes into building a team- commitment, disciple, team before the individual is no longer considered “educational”, and if the litmus test for a college activity or class is now going to be “pay for itself” then the cuts need to be broad and deep.
Do we really need liberal arts? History? My guess is if we take a look at the Dartmouth curriculum, we could all find a program or two that has no “real” value. The world doesn’t need anymore “elites” like educated college professors anyhow.

If a guy has played a sport well enough to play at collegiate level and doesn't understand team and commitment, I might suggest it's an awful lot of time and money to spend on instilling these concepts into adults, especially when the these traits are learned by many more who never play college level sport. Don't overplay the cards or your bluff will be called.

Ciao

[Don Mahaffey]

I’m not overplaying my card and I never said learning those values were exclusive to sport. But for some kids that is where they learn them best.


My beef is the idea that all sports must be revenue neutral. If that’s the case then all programs should as well.


The US is fast developing an every man for himself attitude. It’s one reason why the pandemic is so much worse here as the idea of community health is lost on many. So I guess college sport only being available to the wealthy or those talented enough to play revenue generating sports isn’t all that far fetched.

[Sean_A]

I’m not overplaying my card and I never said learning those values were exclusive to sport. But for some kids that is where they learn them best.


My beef is the idea that all sports must be revenue neutral. If that’s the case then all programs should as well.


The US is fast developing an every man for himself attitude. It’s one reason why the pandemic is so much worse here as the idea of community health is lost on many. So I guess college sport only being available to the wealthy or those talented enough to play revenue generating sports isn’t all that far fetched.

I don't think many are against sport. But there should be limits. Are you going to suggest that positives if sport in college weren't present when on a far smaller scale of 50 years ago? Sport doesn't need to be excessive to be meaningful. Of course, I am only talking about state schools. Privates can do whatever. I suggest that for the cast majority of students, club level sports serves their needs unless turning pro is a goal. In which case, universities shouldn't be the minor leagues anyway.

Ciao

[Don Mahaffey]

Sean,
Club level serves their needs? In Europe where sport clubs are the structure for amateur athletics yes, in the US no chance. Club sports are no where near the level of varsity sports.
You’re basically saying that all women’s sports and the vast majority of men’s sports should be eliminated.
What about drama, music, fine arts...should all those be club level instruction as well?
If it’s going to be 100% about formal education, where is the line?

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Club level serves their needs? In Europe where sport clubs are the structure for amateur athletics yes, in the US no chance. Club sports are no where near the level of varsity sports.
You’re basically saying that all women’s sports and the vast majority of men’s sports should be eliminated.
What about drama, music, fine arts...should all those be club level instruction as well?
If it’s going to be 100% about formal education, where is the line?

Well, yes.  Club sports works fine for those who want to pursue games as a uni student. Its obviously different for the major sports, but I can't see why the onus isn't put on professional teams to create minor leagues for football and basketball just as is the case with baseball and hockey.  Why does the job of training football players fall to universities?  Its a crazy system at the D1 level.  At the lower levels it makes a bit more sense because cost saving measures are employed and few are under the illusion of going pro.  I see college sport as a hugely inefficient use of public resources....resources which are increasingly under pressure.  If we are trying to offer more opportunities for the disadvantaged, then why put them in uniform when it drastically reduces their academic time?

If anything, I would increase drama, fine arts, and especially music at university level.  However, not all universities would offer all these degrees in my ideal state school system.  State universities would do much more partnering to retain high standards and increase job prospects.

We are never gonna agree on this and thats okay. While I don't like the idea of shutting down a sport team which has recruited players, these folks are still at Dartmouth and they can still play golf.

Ciao

[Don Mahaffey]

I just wish you could get your focus off the major sports you seem so consumed by and think about all the high level athlete that participate in Olympic sports like swimming, diving, field hockey, water polo, track and field, and so many more. Most not on scholarship and most very good students as well.  I guess it comes down to whether you think sport is important or not. Sounds like you don’t.
And for the record, I am all for the arts being funded as well.  Education is so, so much more than pure academics.  Sport can open doors. To dismiss it while focused only on the major sports is to diminish 90% of the athletes that compete at the collegiate level. 

[Sean_A]

Don

Olympic sports can be played on a low level. They don't require college support. Take a look around the world. Sport is generally low key and if folks want to explore their sport at high competitive levels they usually do so outside the academic arena.

Ciao