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Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Start Planting
« on: July 09, 2020, 08:36:34 AM »

Everything circles around.  Maybe trees and narrower courses are the answer.  Can you imagine what Bryson and ten more like him would do to a wide open Tom Doak Course! It would be called “the chip and putt classic”  :'(

Maybe Harbour Town has the solution.  It requires shaped golf shots and trajectory control not just 350+ yard bombs. 


Sad to say I am only half joking 🙃

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 09:15:15 AM »
Wrong!


Turn off the water and build greens that make it matter...

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 09:25:28 AM »
Wrong!


Turn off the water and build greens that make it matter...


Where do you suggest errant drives eventually stop? Isn't under a tree the best option?

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 09:28:04 AM »
Nope...in a mediocre lie with a poor angle.

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 09:28:51 AM »
That's not to imply I like zero trees...but creating a couple thousand Harbor Towns is not the answer in my opinion.

Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2020, 09:31:33 AM »
After playing an "overtreed" course as my home club for the last couple years, I've come to really appreciate them. Keep them limbed up well enough to allow backswings, thin enough to minimize how often a person is forced to chip out, and keep the understory clear enough that we don't face long searches for balls all day long. Otherwise, I don't know of any more interesting or economical way to create interesting recovery shots and accountability for guys who would otherwise just spray it all over the yard all day.


Harbour Town should be an outlier, but Oakmont should be too.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2020, 09:31:45 AM »
Jim,
If you saw how many trees I take out on the courses I work on you would know I am mostly joking but what Bryson is doing makes one ponder.  If we end up having to put a clown’s mouth on all the greens is that really the solution? 
Mark

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2020, 09:37:46 AM »
Mark,


How often will Bryson play one of your courses?

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2020, 09:54:15 AM »
Even Garland was flying the ball into power lines 270yds out way back in the 70's. Everyone except me knows multiple people who have just taken up the game who hit the ball 300+ yds. Approximately how many acres would it take to build a course where this modern golfer has an open shot to a green after every drive?


I'm just afraid that eventually you gotta stop these monster hacks ball by something other than fairway.

Tim Gavrich

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2020, 10:05:57 AM »
Jim,
If you saw how many trees I take out on the courses I work on you would know I am mostly joking but what Bryson is doing makes one ponder.  If we end up having to put a clown’s mouth on all the greens is that really the solution? 
Mark
Mark--


Bring Bryson and, say, Corey Pavin to Copake on a typical warm summer day during a dry spell and I think I'd lay my money on Pavin all day long!


Cheers,


--Tim
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2020, 10:23:49 AM »
Tim,
I love Copake and all the work we did there (including the tree work).  I used to think Pavin would be the right choice but not anymore. I think I would take my chances with Bryson hitting 25 yard chip shots vs Pavin hitting full shots from the fairway. 


I am playing Harbour Town again this week and I am going to take even more notes than normal.  I love the golf course (I love variety in golf’s playing fields in general).  Maybe Pete Dye was even more if a genius than we all thought  ;)


Jim,
Thankfully Bryson is not playing them often but the problem is the optics he creates and the influence this has on other courses. 

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2020, 10:43:07 AM »
This or something akin to it might help - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jC-guSi7hI

And more of this kind of thing might aid the skilful and thoughtful at the expense of Brysons Bomber Squadron - short grass and firm terrain can be pretty effective.


atb


« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 11:16:34 AM by Thomas Dai »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2020, 10:50:14 AM »

Everything circles around.  Maybe trees and narrower courses are the answer.  Can you imagine what Bryson and ten more like him would do to a wide open Tom Doak Course! It would be called “the chip and putt classic”  :'(

Maybe Harbour Town has the solution.  It requires shaped golf shots and trajectory control not just 350+ yard bombs. 


Sad to say I am only half joking 🙃


Mark,


And I half agree!  Mark, if you believe that form follows function, you are probably not far off the truth.  Of course, golf course design philosophy is now hotly debated almost as much as political debates, with those in the middle ground just catching incoming fire from both or all sides, but I know you can take it! ;D


I understand strategy and width, but also Flynn and others wrote to challenge accuracy, finesse and lastly distance.  How do wide fw ever challenge accuracy?  Outside the bubble that is gca.com, it is pretty widely known that wide courses are bombers paradises' and basically take most of the field out of contention.  Say what you want about narrowing ANGC, and point out a few individual hole flubs, but most in the golf world don't think its a terrible idea.


We have more stats now.  The USGA Slope rating guide says low handicap players typically can hit 66% of fairways 29-36 yards wide at 275+ yards. Those with 225-yard tee shots need fairways 35-42 yards to hit 66%. For most courses that will never see the tour, I would gather the fw should vary between about 36-42 yards wide, no?  (maybe narrowed by mowing intermediate rough strip if the Tour ever does come to town) Much more is a waste, and 42 is wide enough for good players to strategically place the ball one side or the other.


Besides, the same strategy can be had, aiming for a side of the fw to have an open green, and depending on approach shot length, with a 42 yard wide fw and a green angled at 10-15 degrees as a 60 yard wide fw with a green angled at 30-45 degrees.  What good does another 17 yards of fw do for strategy, while using more mowing, water, chemicals, etc.?  Granted, it may do some good strategically, but for most courses, at what cost and cost to the environment?  Are super wide fw really worth that, all things considered for most courses?


I have heard the modern arguments, and just can't agree that every fw needs to be ultra wide as a design theme. Occasionally for variety, of course is okay.


I will say, we also now know that most trees use more water than turf, and certainly native grasses (after established), which does argue in favor of lesser use, limited to strategic areas (for shade at tees, multi hole backdrops, safety screening, wind blocks, false wind blocks, etc.)  They look better in small clumps of 3-15, perhaps watered with underground drip systems, and the scattered trees do offer some hope of recovery.  I will also agree that for a century, trying to convert open sites to fully wooded ones with trees everywhere can now probably be viewed as at least a partial mistake.  Open courses probably shouldn't aim for more than partially wooded status in most cases.


As always, just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2020, 11:05:14 AM »

Everything circles around.  Maybe trees and narrower courses are the answer.  Can you imagine what Bryson and ten more like him would do to a wide open Tom Doak Course! It would be called “the chip and putt classic”  :'(

Maybe Harbour Town has the solution.  It requires shaped golf shots and trajectory control not just 350+ yard bombs. 


Sad to say I am only half joking 🙃


Serious question.
The "answer" to what?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2020, 11:11:21 AM »
As much as a i hate to suggest it.  If the rules bodies aren't gonna do something about it, grow the rough up for PGA Tour events only.  We'll see how well he does with 6 inch rough on all those wayward shots...

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2020, 11:17:43 AM »
Harbour Town is ONE answer, and that is the great thing about golf — there are so many ways to solve the riddle of what makes for "the ideal playing board."

To say that wide and open is ALWAYS best, would of course not be prudent anymore than trying to define what would make for "the" best greens style or the best bunkering, etc. 

Sites (acreage, land terrain, etc.), owners, members, players, regions, cultures and budgets (both the building and the eventual green fee) all dictate what "the ideal" is for any given design problem.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2020, 11:26:33 AM »
Nelson won 11 straight tournaments during our last great nation crisis. Exactly what has BDC done that requires action?

Jim Sherma

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2020, 11:27:06 AM »
Has there ever been a time where the dominant golfer(s) were not the straighter of the long hitters of their era?


Woods was long
Mickelson was long
Norman was long (can debate if he was a dominant player though)
Nicklaus was long
Palmer was long
Hogan was long
Snead was long
Bobby Jones was long
etc...


Maybe you can make a case for Byron Nelson - Trevino and Player were great but I'm not sure that they were ever seen as the dominant player of their era.



Not sure why we would expect someone who solves the long and straight puzzle to be less than dominant. If a player can get 30 yards closer to the green without missing significantly more fairways I'll take their chances every day.


The real questions about the equipment should be:


1: Should the outer cusp be at 340-360 or 320-340 or 280-300 or 260-280 - the longer hitter will still be longer that the shorter hitter at any of these ranges


2: Should the greater dispersion pattern at higher club head speeds due to side-spin be allowed back into the game - I am a strong believer that the spinnier wound balls acted as a natural governor on desired maximum club head speeds 

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2020, 11:27:57 AM »
Forrest,
I agree.  There is never just one answer. 


Jeff,
The answer to watching 400 yard par fours reduced to chip and putt holes and 9I second shots into 570 yard par fives 😳


Again this is just a reaction to pro golf but it has so much negative influence on other golf courses. 

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2020, 11:33:42 AM »
As much as a i hate to suggest it.  If the rules bodies aren't gonna do something about it, grow the rough up for PGA Tour events only.  We'll see how well he does with 6 inch rough on all those wayward shots...
Surely it's relatively easier for big, strong, muscular pros/players to gouge ball from deep rough, especially if they're only using short irons and wedges, than it is for less physically strong pros/players?
And the physically less strong, will likely be further back from the tee so having to use straighter clubs for their approach shots which has a double-whammy consequence as straighter faced clubs are more difficult to hit from longer grass especially so for less physically strong players.
And as for trees, big, strong folks can usually hit the ball over them whereas the physically less strong are less likely to be able to do so.
Short grass and tight lies on the other hand, encourage and reward quality ball striking and creative shotmaking.
atb
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 12:15:27 PM by Thomas Dai »

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2020, 11:42:15 AM »
Go read the thread: ABOLISH THE TEE!  That would solve it all, especially as the teeing ground gets chewed up into a pulp field toward the end of the day.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 11:58:18 AM »
Go read the thread: ABOLISH THE TEE!  That would solve it all, especially as the teeing ground gets chewed up into a pulp field toward the end of the day.


You're going to need to build a lot of teeing grounds for that solution.  Or:  Astroturf for all tees!

David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2020, 12:01:44 PM »
Norman was long (can debate if he was a dominant player though)

Jim S. -

From bleacherreport.com -
In his career, Greg Norman has spent a total of 331 weeks at the top of the Official World Golf Ranking. Only Tiger Woods has spent more time as the top-ranked golfer in the world.

That sounds dominant to me. ;)

DT


Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 12:04:07 PM »

Everything circles around.  Maybe trees and narrower courses are the answer.  Can you imagine what Bryson and ten more like him would do to a wide open Tom Doak Course! It would be called “the chip and putt classic”  :'(

Maybe Harbour Town has the solution.  It requires shaped golf shots and trajectory control not just 350+ yard bombs. 


Sad to say I am only half joking 🙃


Mark:


Well there aren't "ten more like him" right now, but hopefully Bryson will play at Memorial Park in November, the week before The Masters, so you can find out your answer.


Of course, it's not "wide open" -- we started with a lot of trees -- though it is nowhere near as narrow as Harbour Town, either.


If it's dry and windy instead of wet before and during the event, the scores would be 5-10 shots higher for 72 holes, but you certainly can't bank on that in Houston.  Which doesn't really matter, hopefully the best guy wins, regardless of score.


If they'd let me set the course up, the scores would also be a bit different, but with the Tour insisting they won't use a hole location with more than a 2% slope, my hands were pretty much tied on trying to make it hard for them.  Here's a hint:  if the best players in the world are never required to aim outside the hole on a shortish putt, they're going to go low, no matter how far they drive the ball or how many trees are in play.

Jim Sherma

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Start Planting
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2020, 12:17:25 PM »

Why is it that they require less than 2% slope - it is mere vanity? Another issue could be pace of play - imagine how glacial pace of play would be if every player had to go through the routine and process of making another 4-6 putts a round that are not tap-in's.


Also - how large does the <2% pin placement area need to be?


If they'd let me set the course up, the scores would also be a bit different, but with the Tour insisting they won't use a hole location with more than a 2% slope, my hands were pretty much tied on trying to make it hard for them.  Here's a hint:  if the best players in the world are never required to aim outside the hole on a shortish putt, they're going to go low, no matter how far they drive the ball or how many trees are in play.