Start Planting

[Kalen Braley]

Go read the thread: ABOLISH THE TEE!  That would solve it all, especially as the teeing ground gets chewed up into a pulp field toward the end of the day.

You're going to need to build a lot of teeing grounds for that solution.  Or:  Astroturf for all tees!

Not if you bifurcate.  No tees just for the pros...

[Tom_Doak]

Why is it that they require less than 2% slope - it is mere vanity? Another issue could be pace of play - imagine how glacial pace of play would be if every player had to go through the routine and process of making another 4-6 putts a round that are not tap-in's.

Also - how large does the <2% pin placement area need to be?

I think they want the 2% area five feet to either side of the hole, but I don't remember exactly.


Why?  I suppose slow play could be a factor / excuse [the USGA does manage to get the same number of players around in a day], but I think the bottom line is just that the players don't want to have to worry about another 4-6 putts a round that are not tap-ins.

[Mark_Fine]

It is not just about going low it is about the game being turned into who is the best chipper/putter because strategic play/shot making go out the window unless you count who is best able to hit 30 yard flop shots out of heavy rough 


You saw what happened this past weekend at a Ross course that I believe had some of its width restored to it.  So much for better angles of play.  No angles are required on most chip shots 😊

[Kalen Braley]

It is not just about going low it is about the game being turned into who is the best chipper/putter because strategic play/shot making go out the window unless you count who is best able to hit 30 yard flop shots out of heavy rough 


You saw what happened this past weekend at a Ross course that I believe had some of its width restored to it.  So much for better angles of play.  No angles are required on most chip shots 😊

Mark very true,

Bryson still won despite how awful his wedge game was at times.  Could you imagine how badly he would have crushed the field if he had those dialed in...

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom D — Actually, perhaps LESS teeing s.f. -- as this would certainly gobble up the turf and make it even more challenging to whack a ball from the starting ground!


Screw the 350 yard drives -- get them back to 250, and in a hurry.

[Jason Thurman]

The idea of banning tees is just another nonsensical wag the dog solution like banning U grooves was a few years ago (although banning U grooves actually happened, where I would put the odds at tees getting banned at roughly 776,542:1).


Why do I say it wouldn't work?


Because a year ago I switched to a Taylormade Original One driver. It has a 275cc head and, at least in my hands, is the longest driver I've ever played. And it's a breeze to hit off the deck. I'm a 10 handicap, so I definitely don't hit it on the button every time. The sweet spot is still a little higher than would be ideal when hitting from fairway. But even if I launch it low from the deck, I still get a ton of run. And if I get the sweet spot on the ball, it goes virtually as far as from a tee. Not to mention, I really love that when I hit it from the fairway I can confidently count on taking the left side out of play... it just doesn't hook away from me like it can when I tee it up.


So what do you think a pro who hits their 3 wood 310 yards would do with a driver engineered to be hit from turf and fitted to their swing and that's harder to lose to a hook? All those guys need is a dime-sized sweet spot anyways. And meanwhile, teeless amateurs will riot and we'll all be standing in shovel holes carved by 25 handicaps who still swing just as hard as they ever did, and make flush contact just as infrequently as they ever did too.


We're going to get pros back to hitting 250 yard drives by banning tees? They're hitting their damn 3 irons that far currently. Didn't Bryson hit like a 240 yard 8 iron on Sunday from the rough? Wait til the scratch players at every club start demanding the tee boxes be maintained at intermediate rough height so they can hit fliers all day.


Want to actually rein in distance? Either rein in the specs, or make accuracy count again.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Want to actually rein in distance? Either rein in the specs, or make accuracy count again.

Both could be achieved simply by mandating a specific dimple depth and pattern for all conforming golf balls.

[Forrest Richardson]

Jason — "Nonsensical" seems a bit brash. Perhaps even snarky. But, opinions count. It would obviously never take flight, but abolishing the use of tees remains the LOWEST COST solution. Give me another?

I like placing a premium on accuracy. Always have.

[Mark_Fine]

Par is of course relative but maybe someone has to design an 18 hole “championship course” with 8 or 10 par three holes instead of the normal four or sometimes five.  That will save cost/real estate and take a bit of the distance advantage away from the bombers.  Some of my favorite holes in golf are par threes so I wouldn’t mind seeing more of them.  Think of the extra few “short holes” as the architect simply requiring more than just a pitch shot to reach the putting surface “in regulation” 


Tom Doak, you like to lead!  I put you to the challenge 

[Ira Fishman]

I know that there is no way to stop the regular threads about courses for Tour Pros, but I do have the same, simple question that has been posted many times before: why should any other category of golfer, including excellent players, care? 50 courses played one time during the year. Even accounting for the rotations for the Majors other than the Masters, it is a minuscule amount of rounds. They play a game with which as to paraphrase Mr. Jones "we are unfamiliar". Fortunately, it seems in the current era that few architects give much thought to designing courses for the Pros.


Ira

[Forrest Richardson]

The "wedge" that gets driven in this discussion is the fact that increased distance among the elite players begins to distance those who play the game for fun and its social aspects — to the few who they see on TV.

In the 1850s nearly every "average" golfer could attain the distance of the elite...but today, the game has a growing gap between these two fields. And, that does nothing to help golf. Rather, it divides one of the greatest aspects of the sport — that we can all play on the same playing board and have a go at giving the same course an equal try. Now we have numerous tees, different set-ups and even different pars assigned to holes depending on who's playing.

The only upside is what John Solheim articulated to me many years ago: We sell a lot more clubs, balls and gimmicks because everyone wants to excel to attain that farther distance goal.

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
It is because it has so much influence over what happens on many other golf courses even though tour pros may never play there.  You do have to also remember, it is not just pros, it is college kids who play at courses all over and hit the ball just as far if not farther and high level amateur or tour qualifier events that are played everywhere, ...   When you add up the number of courses that don’t want to be relegated to chip and putt courses it is significant.  It is not just the ones you see on TV. 

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


I am a rank amateur, but if your proposition is that a great number of heavily treed courses is good for architecture, please count me out. I think that trees in moderation can be fantastic, but not just for the sake of difficulty.


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

What trees or rather the roots do to the ground and underground shouldn’t be underestimated.
Plant lots of trees and look forward to enjoying adversely effected turf conditions and drainage in the years to come.
Just rollback the bloody ball.

Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
I am not saying that at all.  What I am saying is that MANY golf courses, not just the ones you see the pros play on TV, are impacted by what the pros do.  If all we had to worry about were 50 courses that the pros play, we wouldn’t have to have this discussion but unfortunately that is not the case.  It is the trickle down effect. 


But Tom Doak is going to build a world class 6400 yard championship design on 110 acres with 4 par fives, 4 par fours and 10 par threes that challenges the best golfers in the world and the whole golf design world is going to take notice and change direction for the better.  And of course Tom is going to toss me a bone for the idea 


And by the way, I am only half kidding 😉

[David Ober]

Forrest,
I agree.  There is never just one answer. 


Jeff,
The answer to watching 400 yard par fours reduced to chip and putt holes and 9I second shots into 570 yard par fives 😳


Again this is just a reaction to pro golf but it has so much negative influence on other golf courses.

It's definitely not just pro golf. SCGA Amateur Qualifier today with a college freshman. 540 yard par-5? driver, pitching wedge. He had 157 in.


Made par.

[Tom_Doak]

But Tom Doak is going to build a world class 6400 yard championship design on 110 acres with 4 par fives, 4 par fours and 10 par threes that challenges the best golfers in the world and the whole golf design world is going to take notice and change direction for the better.  And of course Tom is going to toss me a bone for the idea 

Make up your mind, man.  An hour ago you had me building a course with ten par-3's.  I didn't even have time to ask you where I was supposed to plant the trees to make that one more interesting.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
LOL.  Yes am I jumping around.  I think I like the 10 par three idea much better. It really would be good for the game.  Let’s focus on that and let someone else worry about planting trees on existing golf courses 😉


In all seriousness, this 10 par three idea could be a good one 😊

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
LOL.  Yes am I jumping around.  I think I like the 10 par three idea much better. It really would be good for the game.  Let’s focus on that and let someone else worry about planting trees on existing golf courses 😉


In all seriousness, this 10 par three idea could be a good one 😊

Okay.  There are ten par threes at The Loop.  But you only play five of them in any 18-hole round.

[David Ober]

Tom,
LOL.  Yes am I jumping around.  I think I like the 10 par three idea much better. It really would be good for the game.  Let’s focus on that and let someone else worry about planting trees on existing golf courses 😉


In all seriousness, this 10 par three idea could be a good one 😊

I love this idea! Zach Johnson, et al., could be winning into his/their 50's!

[Mark_Fine]

I will have to play The Loop. 


But think about the 10 par three idea in 18 holes.  If your 10 par threes averaged 200 yards, your four par fours averaged 500 yards and your four par fives averaged 600 yards you would still only have a 6400 yard course from the tips.  This could be the future 😊

[Bob Montle]

Allow golf balls to have whatever dimples manufacturers can come up with.
Same with materials, number of layers, whatever.
Simply require:
1) Minimum diameter  (ball must not pass thru ring of given diameter
2) Ball must float   (tested in pure distilled water at 70 degrees F)

I would pay to watch Bryson take his full swing at this ball!

[Bob Montle]

I played with a young woman on my captain's choice team at this weeks shootout. (We won - easily)
She is about 6ft 140 lbs.   Just started golfing this year.  New equipment.
There are several holes between 280 - 300 yds from the women's tees at this course. (Verified by GPS)
She drove on or over each of these greens.

It IS the equipment, folks.

[Tom_Doak]

I will have to play The Loop. 


But think about the 10 par three idea in 18 holes.  If your 10 par threes averaged 200 yards, your four par fours averaged 500 yards and your four par fives averaged 600 yards you would still only have a 6400 yard course from the tips.  This could be the future 😊

Audubon Park, in New Orleans, had ten par-3's if I remember correctly, and I put it in the front of Volume 2 of TCG.  It only has two par-5's and neither is above 500 yards, but it seemed to be a fairly strong course against the par of 64.  As we all know, even Tour pros are unlikely to be much under par for the week on the par-3 holes . . . because for many years now, those are the longest approach shots they face.


But does grouping a bunch of holes around the 200-yard mark achieve variety of design?


The most fair solution is just to build the holes in 25- or 30-yard increments.  You're not going to "defend par" -- par is an abstract, anyway -- but by definition you're not going to favor anyone with that setup, except for the better golfer.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I didn’t mean all the holes were that length.  You could have a par three at 120 yards and one at 280 yards or whatever makes sense.  I was just trying to get an idea what the total length of the 18 hole course might be and if everything netted out that way i suggested it would only be 6400 yards.  Again the idea was a course of that kind of length that had all kinds of variety and tested the best players.  To do so, you likely need that many par threes to somewhat neutralize the bombers.  That is the whole idea yet still have holes that let the bombers “release the Kraken” every once in a while but just not on 80% of the golf holes 😊