difficult courses you could play everyday

[Kalen Braley]

I am surprised that so many would pick Carnoustie. A regular diet of Carnoustie would either make you a good player or a former player.
When I go to Ireland I play The European Club every day for a week.

At this risk of getting the Harbor Town treatment, Carn-nasty certainly wont be on the itinerary when I finally get over there! 

[Gib_Papazian]

I could play the Dunluce every day and never get bored - in that case, the Valley is sitting right there.


When I was a youngster, Carnoustie was a fabulous challenge - and I had the chops to draw swords and have at it. But now, much like my own U.S.Open venue - or Oakmont, I'd rather pound nails in my dick than endure that kind of merciless exposure every day.

[Lou_Duran]

Yes, Royal Portrush is one.  Royal County Down is another.  Olympic-Lake, Bethpage-Black, Shinny, OSU- Scarlet as well.  I would welcome a second pass at Chicago GC, Whistling Straits- Straits and Erin Hills to see if they qualify.

[Sean_A]

I too would probably drop for Pinehurst 2 mostly based on the theory that I won't spend much time looking for balls. I still don't think I would want to play P2 every week let alone every day. 

Ciao

[David Wuthrich]

Shinnecock, Oakmont and Muirfield come to mind

[David Ober]

Shinnecock, Oakmont and Muirfield come to mind

I would add Carnoustie to the list for sure. Played there on my first and only trip overseas and it was our first course. I was jet-lagged so bad, I felt like I had a horrible case of the flu. The ground was literally moving on me. Shot 80 in the rain. Definitely want another crack at 'er! :-)

[Peter Flory]

Is it really that much more grueling shooting an 85 with a lot of scrambling rather than a smooth 75 with lots of GIR?  Or a 95 vs an 85? 

If you're skiing a triple black diamond as a novice, you may break your neck.  But in golf, the worst thing is that you pick up and move to the next hole. 

[Shane Wright]

I would consider Shinnecock, Seminole and Royal County Down very difficult golf courses.  I could play them every single day the rest of my life and be the happiest person on the planet.  Outside of hole #9 at Royal County Down, there are zero holes on all three of these courses that I couldn't just bunt the ball down the fairway as an 80 year old and not still be thrilled to be playing such a course.

[Thomas Dai]

I am surprised that so many would pick Carnoustie. A regular diet of Carnoustie would either make you a good player or a former player.
When I go to Ireland I play The European Club every day for a week.

I recall playing Carnoustie with a good friend and his wife. She was a 36+ hcp player and not a very long hitter. She enthused about the course at Carnoustie. When I asked her why she said it was because apart from the burn, which she didn't think was really that wide, there were no forced carries, that she could play to the angles and thus away from the bunkers and it was nice and flat so an easy walk for her.
Carnoustie gets a bad rap from some folk but it's actually pretty playable if you play from the appropriate tees.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

The only one for me, really, is Crystal Downs.  I believe it qualifies as difficult, even though it is short; every time I take a fairly good player around it they wind up looking peeved.  But the shortness allows someone like me [or, really, anyone] to have some good holes along the way, even if it gets you in the end.

[SL_Solow]

In Chicago, Beverly and OFCC North

[Duncan Cheslett]

The only one for me, really, is Crystal Downs.  I believe it qualifies as difficult, even though it is short; every time I take a fairly good player around it they wind up looking peeved.  But the shortness allows someone like me [or, really, anyone] to have some good holes along the way, even if it gets you in the end.

Never have I read a better endorsement of the notion of a "short" golf course. A little lower down the food chain that is exactly how I feel about Cavendish.


Seldom have I seen good players challenged simply by length. They just hit it further.


For average players however, long courses soon become a weary slog.

[Thomas Dai]

The only one for me, really, is Crystal Downs.  I believe it qualifies as difficult, even though it is short; every time I take a fairly good player around it they wind up looking peeved.  But the shortness allows someone like me [or, really, anyone] to have some good holes along the way, even if it gets you in the end.

Never have I read a better endorsement of the notion of a "short" golf course. A little lower down the food chain that is exactly how I feel about Cavendish.
Seldom have I seen good players challenged simply by length. They just hit it further.
For average players however, long courses soon become a weary slog.

Some folks pooh-pooh some courses as being 'too short'. No course is 'too short' until the person concerned can play level par or better every time they play it. If you can do this you are given a +hcp, which means you are giving shots back to the course rather than receiving them from it.
atb

[Mark Pearce]

The objection to Carnoustie by those who wouldn't play it every day appears to be that it's hard.  As noted above, it's a relatively easy walk, there are few forced carries and those can be made short by laying up and there are angles allowing hazards to be avoided.  The objection actually appears to be that Carnoustie is really difficult.  But that's what this thread is asking for.  Those writing off Carnoustie as too much of a slog (it really isn't) actually appear to be saying that they wouldn't want to play a difficult golf course every day.  That's fine, and understandable, but let's be honest....

[Niall C]

Carnoustie is certainly a course where I'd happily play the rest of my days and I say that because I think it has plenty of interest as well as difficulty. Building/designing a difficult course is easy (IMHO), just have continual hazards up each side the full length of the fairways but I don't think that would be too interesting. Carnoustie isn't like that. I think it actually does have maybe more forced carries than the average links ie. Barry Burn and Spectacles bunkers, but they aren't so expansive that there is a huge carry but they do pop up in awkward places which makes them interesting.

Niall

[Niall C]

Carnoustie gets a bad rap from some folk but it's actually pretty playable if you play from the appropriate tees.
atb

David

If you play from the "appropriate" tees then does it remain a difficult course ? Of course the "appropriate" tees might not mean playing from the front tees as I recall my days playing at Glasgow Gailes where sometimes I thought the hardest tees were the yellow day to day tees because all the bunkers came into play whereas the whites and black tees a lot of the bunkers were beyond reach.

And of course also, I could simply have taken a shorter club off those yellow tees to take the bunkers out of play, but where's the fun in that ? 

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Niall,
Appropriate is relative. My reasoning of appropriate is for example, physically weaker and lessor skilled players not going to the very back tees. And appropriateness can change in relation to other factors too, such as wind strength and direction.
Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't think any of us are saying that we can't enjoy a difficult course. For many of us the question is, "Is this difficult course fun for me to play?" I enjoy many difficult courses. Carnoustie isn't one of them. Of course, I have only played it twice.

[Gib_Papazian]

Thomas,

Doubtless that Constance Havershire, age 83, can totter down the fairway, swatting her pellet with an old brassie, giving wide berth to the Spectacles - or whatever other horrors await to anyone with the temerity to run the Calvinist gauntlet in less than three figures.

However, gleefully tapping in for a Colonel Bogey +1 (a sewing circle par) is more an exercise in exercise - unless the combatants are equally matched refugees from the local Flower Arranging Society.

So true enough, Carnoustie can be navigated by the Calendar Girls on holiday from Yorkshire, but putting across the Barry Burn (now renamed the Padraig Harrington Bridge) is not exactly what I had in mind while plummeting towards my dotage.

In truth, TOC has enough intellectual content at nearly every level to keep things interesting to the bitter end. When that gets too much, you just gracefully drop down a bracket to the New, then the Jubilee, then the Eden, then Strathtyrum, then the Balgove and finally the corner stool at the Jigger Inn.

When I fall off that, bury me in the Coffins bunker . . . . .   

[Mark Pearce]

So true enough, Carnoustie can be navigated by the Calendar Girls on holiday from Yorkshire, but putting across the Barry Burn (now renamed the Padraig Harrington Bridge) is not exactly what I had in mind while plummeting towards my dotage.

In truth, TOC has enough intellectual content at nearly every level to keep things interesting to the bitter end. When that gets too much, you just gracefully drop down a bracket to the New, then the Jubilee, then the Eden, then Strathtyrum, then the Balgove and finally the corner stool at the Jigger Inn.

No-one is suggesting putting across the Barry Burn, nor would my 88 year old father in law, for instance, feel the need.  But then this from someone who labours under the misapprehension that the New is a step down in difficulty from the Old, so to be taken with a pinch of salt.

[mark chalfant]

Prairie Dunes by the Maxwells and St. Georges in Toronto.


At St. Georges there are many challenging approaches and numerous stern par fours. Normally such elements are not my cup of tea. But a wonderful routing, some engaging greens and artistic bunkering all by Stanley Thompson make St. George's very memorable!


NCR South also springs to mind......fantastic greens

[Gib_Papazian]

Mark,


Ahem, that was meant to be funny - but apparently my discursive observations fell as flat as Carnoustie's topography.


I see Bogey's "Is this a great country or what?" thread was deleted - and no less than our architectural Yahweh (and dear friend) has privately scolded me for my bedrock beliefs and observations - so I must have crossed over into Barny Territory. The next step will be Ran dangling me out the Treehouse window, demanding a retraction and enrollment into a communist reeducation camp.


Three weeks ago, I turned off my Facebook page out of eye-rolling boredom; but since I'm impervious to this nuevo-cancel culture, Her Redness took threats from an army of dogmasticators (I think that is a made-up word) a bit too seriously - and thought a Molotov Cocktail through our front window was a virtual certainty.     

[Mark Pearce]

Gib,


My apologies.  My humour radar on this site is unreliable, and only ever really functions properly when Barney posts.  I will attempt to readjust it but cannot promise any improvement.

[Gib_Papazian]

Don't apologise, but Mrs. Havershire was hardly chuffed at my suggestion she must putt across the Barry Burn.


Note the British spelling . . . . . . pretty soon I'll be eating crumpets and poisoning my tea with cream like Sean Arble.   

[Sean_A]

Don't apologise, but Mrs. Havershire was hardly chuffed at my suggestion she must putt across the Barry Burn.

Note the British spelling . . . . . . pretty soon I'll be eating crumpets and poisoning my tea with cream like Sean Arble. 

If I could afford cream on a daily basis I would try it even though it sounds disgusting

One of the main reasons I chose Pinehurst 2 for this topic is because of the walk.  The reasonable tees are geared toward easy access from greens.  The design is fantastic in that the flat bellies do most the crap walks to back tees    For me, the short tees work very well in creating interesting tee shots.  No question to me P2 is a masterful design.

Ciao