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Mark Chaplin

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2020, 06:21:02 PM »
Quote from: Michael Felton on July 08, 2020, 08:20:02 AM
8 at Pine Valley is just about the best short par four I've seen. Playing a wedge off a sloping lie to the smallest green you've ever seen. Hard not to clench up. Would add a vote for 6 at Deal too. Exasperating.


A good short par 4 presents a birdie chance or you can hit 4 nearly good shots and take 6. The 6th at Deal and 8th at Pine Valley are perfect examples of such holes
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Cave Nil Vino

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2020, 06:30:31 PM »
I agree, Mark, on the 6th at Deal. And, I especially agree with Tom Doak on the 15th at Dismal Red. Both are confounding holes that, as Mark says, present a chance for four nearly good shots that can easily result in a six. I am sorely missing the chance to play both holes with the pandemic keeping me from Deal, and the discontinuance of Eric Smith’s “Fifth Major” keeping me from Dismal River. We forget how good we’ve got it until something like this snatches away our privileges.
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"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2020, 07:57:14 PM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on July 08, 2020, 02:47:22 PM
The Sandbelt will be well represented...


As it should be! Some of the better ones here.


Victoria 1 and 15
Kingston Heath 3
Woodlands 3, 4 and 13.
Peninsula North 6 and 13
Peninsula South 7 and 12
Royal Melb W 3 and 10
RM E 1 and 15
Spring Valley 4
Long Island 8
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Bill Seitz

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2020, 10:51:41 PM »
I haven't made a 2 there yet, but I've made everything from 3 to X on the 13th at Kingsley.  And it's probably the only par four I play where my strategy off the tee is entirely dependent on where the pin is set on a given day. 
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Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2020, 12:17:36 AM »
This may be a tangent, but why does the 3rd at Swinley get more love than the 2nd? I loved that little creek bed fronting a green which runs away from you.
Back on topic, some of my favorites I've played with a west coast slant:
2- Swinley Forest5- Chicago
6- Pacific Dunes, also really enjoyed watching the Ams play 6 at LACC during the Walker Cup
9- Cypress
10- Riviera12- Rustic Canyon (David Ober, brilliant description of that hole)15- Wilshire
16- Bandon Dunes
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Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2020, 06:31:09 AM »
1   Royal Melborne (East) [334y / 305m]
2   St. Andrews Beach [306y / 280m]
3   Kingston Heath [295y / 270m]
4   Barnbougle Dunes [295y / 270m]
5   Royal Dornoch [350y / 320m]
6   Pacific Dunes [316y / 289m]
7   Sand Hills [256y / 235m]
8   Pine Valley [326y / 298m]
9   Cypress Point [295y / 270m]
10   Riviera [315y / 288m]
11   Sunningdale (Old) [323y / 296m]
12   St. Andrews (Old) [316y / 289m]
13   Lahinch [278y / 255m]
14   Barnbougle Lost Farm [289y / 265m]
15   Victoria [327y / 290m]
16   Bandon Dunes - USA [338y / 309m]
17   Pine Valley [344y / 315m]
18   St. Andrews (Old) [350y / 320m]

Only 5 of the above are over 330y or 300m ... I wish architects would build more of these types of holes
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Tim Martin

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2020, 06:53:23 AM »
1. Westchester CC West
2. Cape Arundel
3. Fishers Island
4. Bass Rocks
5. Glens Falls
6. Winged Foot West
7. Wannamoisett
8. Whitinsville
9. Cohasset
10. Southern Pines
11. Newport
12. Eastward Ho
13. Hollywood
14. Ekwanok
15. Fenway
16. Southampton
17. Essex County Club
18. Wyantenuck
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Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2020, 10:17:04 AM »
I'd offer the 18th at North Berwick and just looked it up for their website description which is pretty funny. Great birdie chance or eagle even to finish a round in an iconic setting. Not good for those that slice when taking prodigious hacks!

 Pro’s Tip: Concentrate – car repairs are expensive. Play left if you feel the need for safety. A good time to finish with a birdie in front of the clubhouse.


 
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"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2020, 07:12:16 PM »
Jeff

I love that finishing hole - almost as good as TOC! The fallaways from the green make it no easy birdie.
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2020, 02:09:17 AM »
Quote from: Tal Oz on July 13, 2020, 12:17:36 AM
This may be a tangent, but why does the 3rd at Swinley get more love than the 2nd? I loved that little creek bed fronting a green which runs away from you.
Back on topic, some of my favorites I've played with a west coast slant:
2- Swinley Forest5- Chicago
6- Pacific Dunes, also really enjoyed watching the Ams play 6 at LACC during the Walker Cup
9- Cypress
10- Riviera12- Rustic Canyon (David Ober, brilliant description of that hole)15- Wilshire
16- Bandon Dunes

I didn't know the 3rd did get more love. I don't 5hink either hole is among the best short 4s in the world.

Ciao
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New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil McDade

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2020, 10:53:34 PM »
8th at Lawsonia.


9th at Milwaukee CC.



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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2020, 09:55:17 PM »
1. Keney Park
2. Shoreacres
3. Eastward Ho
4. McGregor
5. Old Sandwich
6. Michigan
7. Maidstone
8. St. Louis
9. Milwaukee


10. White Bear Yacht
11. Huntington
12. Pasatiempo
13. Myopia
14. Yale
15. Dismal River Red
16. Old Town
17. Southern Hills
18. Worcester
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 09:35:18 AM by mark chalfant »
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Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2020, 10:17:47 AM »
9 and 14 at Loch Lomond are very good, and the 3rd and 5th holes on the East course at Wentworth are a lot of fun.
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Phil McDade

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2020, 10:24:19 AM »
Quote from: Phil McDade on July 16, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
8th at Lawsonia.


9th at Milwaukee CC.


And while we're at it, 2nd at Erin Hills ;)


And the 10th at Whistling Straits
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Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2020, 03:00:11 PM »
A shameless plug for the 5th hole at Sunningdale Country Club (1918, Scarsdale, NY) where I happen to hang my golfing hat. The hole was born a land-locked, sort of mediocre Rayner "Bottle" template that was transformed by Mike DeVries in an early 2008 phase of the golf course's redesign. Rather than explain the merits of this wonderful short four myself, I'll let golf course architecture critic Matt Ward carry the water as he wrote this fine piece that explains the hole's charms last year...


https://www.golfcontentnetwork.com/travel/grade-a-architecture-7/
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Neil Regan

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Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2020, 10:07:38 PM »
Michael,


  No shame required, but maybe some pride.
That hole is a masterpiece.
Every golfer can get on in two,
and there is a very significant advantage for various angles and approach distances, based on pin location.
Every golfer can put his ball in the better spot and earn an advantage.


And it sits beautifully on site, as if it had always been there.
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Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2020, 03:51:05 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2020, 12:46:54 PM
Most of the courses that scored a 10 on the Doak Scale set themselves apart with a group of exceptional short par-4's.  To wit:


Shinnecock Hills - 8, 13
National Golf Links - 1, 2, 14, 17
Pine Valley - 2, 8, 17
Merion (East) - 1, 7, 8, 10
Pinehurst (No. 2) - 3, 13
Crystal Downs - 5, 7, 15, 17
Sand Hills - 7, 8
Pacific Dunes - 1, 2, 6, 16
Cypress Point - 8, 9, 13


Royal Melbourne (West) - 3, 10
Royal Dornoch - 1, 5, 15
St. Andrews (Old) - 7, 12, 16, 18
Muirfield - 2, 3, 11
Ballybunion (Old) - 1, 6, 10




As a result I have always looked for similar holes in my own work.  A few have been mentioned already, but not 7 & 12 at Ballyneal, or 4, 6 & 15 at Dismal River (Red).

#15 at Rock Creek Cattle
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Mr Hurricane

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2020, 04:22:05 PM »
6 and 13 at Plymouth CC
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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Short Par 4s (< 350y / 320m - in hole sequence order)
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2020, 08:07:56 PM »
Though I'm a critic of Fenway's faults, #s 1 and 15 have to be considered.
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"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -
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