Yale | Next Karsten Creek?

[Drew Maliniak]

These might just be unfortunate pictures. But it appears that Yale G.C. is having a rough go currently.


https://twitter.com/GolfGuy77/status/1278493040986845185/photo/1


If it's not reopening until at least July 31 (and dicey that the University reopens this fall), I wonder if the University might finally be open to selling or leasing the property.


I've heard in the past that it might move to a Karsten Creek or Blessings model. Great to hear about any intel.


Love to see the old Punchbowl restored.

[Tim Martin]

Shameful

[John Emerson]

There was many people bitching an moaning about these pictures on social media and it makes me insane.  Cut these people some slack.  It’s grass...you can get it to come back, and not it’s not “dead” as many fools are suggesting.  Weeds in the bunkers can be fixed quickly.  Relax everyone the sky isn’t falling!  They’re trying to navigate a pandemic.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Maybe universities owning golf courses isn't a good governance model?


It is difficult when you are an educational institution and you have priorities other than a golf course when you have an event like this hit you.  Even when you have a $30B endowment there will always be lots of places where your budget can be spent - keeping a golf course going is hard to prioritize when there is so much other stuff going on right now.

[Tommy Williamsen]

https://www.ctpost.com/sports/article/Yale-Golf-Course-closed-through-end-of-July-15315145.php

[Jim Hoak]

The School is reopening this Fall--but with major restrictions.  Don't know what that means for the golf course.

[jeffwarne]

There was many people bitching an moaning about these pictures on social media and it makes me insane.  Cut these people some slack.  It’s grass...you can get it to come back, and not it’s not “dead” as many fools are suggesting.  Weeds in the bunkers can be fixed quickly.  Relax everyone the sky isn’t falling!  They’re trying to navigate a pandemic.

Sure the pandemic has been difficullt.
But why, during one of the greatest golf booms any of us can remember, have they allowed an asset to go to waste that could be easily paying for itself.
I know nothing of the details but essential maintenance was allowed throughout the pandemic and golf courses have been packed other that short time they were closed in April.


Most businesses have been forced to adapt. Why hasn't Yale GC?

[Pete_Pittock]

Here is another thread on the same subject within the last month


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29066.0.html

[John Emerson]

There was many people bitching an moaning about these pictures on social media and it makes me insane.  Cut these people some slack.  It’s grass...you can get it to come back, and not it’s not “dead” as many fools are suggesting.  Weeds in the bunkers can be fixed quickly.  Relax everyone the sky isn’t falling!  They’re trying to navigate a pandemic.

Sure the pandemic has been difficullt.
But why, during one of the greatest golf booms any of us can remember, have they allowed an asset to go to waste that could be easily paying for itself.
I know nothing of the details but essential maintenance was allowed throughout the pandemic and golf courses have been packed other that short time they were closed in April.


Most businesses have been forced to adapt. Why hasn't Yale GC?

I don’t think they (or most other folks for that matter) care about golf the same way we do.  For the other guy talking about 30B endowment...almost always this money is already earmarked for educational purposes. Especially more at an Ivy League school.  This course could be brought back quickly so don’t everyone lose their mind.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The other guy talking about the $30B endowment was me.  I agree that the money is earmarked in other areas.  It is hard to argue that the university should be spending any money operating a golf course when students are not around.  Maybe if the golf course was a cash cow for the university it might make sense, but the priority in terms of money and resources will rarely be something like a golf course.


That's why I said it may not make sense for the golf course to continue to be owned by the university.

[jeffwarne]

There was many people bitching an moaning about these pictures on social media and it makes me insane.  Cut these people some slack.  It’s grass...you can get it to come back, and not it’s not “dead” as many fools are suggesting.  Weeds in the bunkers can be fixed quickly.  Relax everyone the sky isn’t falling!  They’re trying to navigate a pandemic.

Sure the pandemic has been difficullt.
But why, during one of the greatest golf booms any of us can remember, have they allowed an asset to go to waste that could be easily paying for itself.
I know nothing of the details but essential maintenance was allowed throughout the pandemic and golf courses have been packed other that short time they were closed in April.


Most businesses have been forced to adapt. Why hasn't Yale GC?

I don’t think they (or most other folks for that matter) care about golf the same way we do.  For the other guy talking about 30B endowment...almost always this money is already earmarked for educational purposes. Especially more at an Ivy League school.  This course could be brought back quickly so don’t everyone lose their mind.

John,
Other than presumably the students, who else plays the golf course?
They are gone early May-Septmeber, surely there's a lot of users who support it those 4 months
members? I'm sure they would care about missing a year of playing golf

[John Blain]

There was many people bitching an moaning about these pictures on social media and it makes me insane.  Cut these people some slack.  It’s grass...you can get it to come back, and not it’s not “dead” as many fools are suggesting.  Weeds in the bunkers can be fixed quickly.  Relax everyone the sky isn’t falling!  They’re trying to navigate a pandemic.

Sure the pandemic has been difficullt.
But why, during one of the greatest golf booms any of us can remember, have they allowed an asset to go to waste that could be easily paying for itself.
I know nothing of the details but essential maintenance was allowed throughout the pandemic and golf courses have been packed other that short time they were closed in April.


Most businesses have been forced to adapt. Why hasn't Yale GC?

I don’t think they (or most other folks for that matter) care about golf the same way we do.  For the other guy talking about 30B endowment...almost always this money is already earmarked for educational purposes. Especially more at an Ivy League school.  This course could be brought back quickly so don’t everyone lose their mind.

John,
Other than presumably the students, who else plays the golf course?
They are gone early May-Septmeber, surely there's a lot of users who support it those 4 months
members? I'm sure they would care about missing a year of playing golf

I completely agree with Jeff Warne. I believe there are only three University owned golf courses that are still closed:
Hanover CC (Dartmouth College)
University of Georgia's course
Yale GC
Hanover and Georgia are both being being maintained while Yale's course is going to seed. Makes no sense. It seems like the Yale GC was always the red headed step child of the school and over the years has been completely mis-managed. Some things never change.
-John

[Tom Bacsanyi]

There was many people bitching an moaning about these pictures on social media and it makes me insane.  Cut these people some slack.  It’s grass...you can get it to come back, and not it’s not “dead” as many fools are suggesting.  Weeds in the bunkers can be fixed quickly.  Relax everyone the sky isn’t falling!  They’re trying to navigate a pandemic.

In the photo of the putting green the voided areas are quite dead I assure you, and will need to be reseeded and babied (frequent irrigation, fertilizer, no traffic) for several weeks or months. Depending on how widespread those types of areas are, the reestablishment might not be so simple. I have no idea what the staff was allowed to do or even if they were allowed on site, but if you're closed for play you can keep everything alive with a very small staff. I agree with you though that the weeds in bunkers are of small concern.

[Jim Hoak]

I totally agree that the Yale golf course has been mismanaged for years--lack of funding by the School, capitulation to the employees' union, etc. 
Where I differ with most of you is the solution.  I believe that the University needs to step up to preserve this valuable asset--for use by its golf teams, by students and by employees of the School.  I also have no problem with outside daily fee use--especially by golf course architecture enthusiasts who can appreciate the brilliance of the course.  Where I think things have gone wrong are the usage for a petty fee by local and regional golfers not affiliated with the School.  That has resulted in overplay and a burden on the course.  The University is selling off this precious asset for a pittance.  It needs to step up and preserve this as it would any other historically significant asset--and have it used in ways that relate directly to the betterment of the University and its constituents.
I'd hope to hear from Colin.

[Ken Moum]

Well, they are going to need some money to pay for erasing Elihu Yale's name from everything there.


 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Well, they are going to need some money to pay for erasing Elihu Yale's name from everything there.


 

Bush University?

[Paul Rudovsky]

IMO Wayne Kozun is 1000% right...and I say that as a golf and golf architect nut and a former trustee of a very major university.  First of all, very very few university trustees know much about golf...much less the details involved in the care and maintenance of a golf course (and what makes a great golf course).  They know a fair amount about the education process...and that is what they care about and what they do (and will always focus on).


If you want another outstanding example of this...Hotchkiss School in CT...where Seth Raynor met Charles Banks.  A course of great historical significance that had been ruined and is almost unrecognizable.  Guarantee you that almost every decision made to date that affected the course's maintenance and architecture was made based almost solely on its affect on education.  And as a golf nut Class A...I think that is right and appropriate...it is an educational institution, not a golf institution.  If you want greatness in anything, narrow your focus, do not scatter shot.


Finally...as I believe Colin enjoys his job...he will never post anything about this topic on GCA...and if you were coach of Yale's golf team, neither would you!

[John Blain]

IMO Wayne Kozun is 1000% right...and I say that as a golf and golf architect nut and a former trustee of a very major university.  First of all, very very few university trustees know much about golf...much less the details involved in the care and maintenance of a golf course (and what makes a great golf course).  They know a fair amount about the education process...and that is what they care about and what they do (and will always focus on).


If you want another outstanding example of this...Hotchkiss School in CT...where Seth Raynor met Charles Banks.  A course of great historical significance that had been ruined and is almost unrecognizable.  Guarantee you that almost every decision made to date that affected the course's maintenance and architecture was made based almost solely on its affect on education.  And as a golf nut Class A...I think that is right and appropriate...it is an educational institution, not a golf institution.  If you want greatness in anything, narrow your focus, do not scatter shot.


Finally...as I believe Colin enjoys his job...he will never post anything about this topic on GCA...and if you were coach of Yale's golf team, neither would you!

Whatever happened "excellence in all areas?"  Is maintaining a golf course really taking away from academics?  You can't have great academics and a well maintained golf course at the same time? Seriously? It seems like an awful lot of schools manage to do both. Those schools can manage it but Yale can't?  Please. 

[Jim Hoak]

If someone gave Yale a great painting, a great work of art, that painting would have no direct relationship to education, but the University would take great care of it anyway.  The goal needs to be convincing Yale that it has a work of art in that golf course!  I agree--excellence in all areas!  The problem is that most educators think, It's only a golf course.  They neglect to understand its historical significance and architectural brilliance.

[jeffwarne]

If someone gave Yale a great painting, a great work of art, that painting would have no direct relationship to education, but the University would take great care of it anyway.  The goal needs to be convincing Yale that it has a work of art in that golf course!  I agree--excellence in all areas!  The problem is that most educators think, It's only a golf course.  They neglect to understand its historical significance and architectural brilliance.

and that piece of art,unlike the golf course, if well managed is FAR less able to generate the revenue to be self sustaining or even quite profitable.
You have multiple billions and have to prioritize education over properly maintaining an asset that could produce income?
Lots of apologists it seems, so you see how it could happen.

[Joel_Stewart]

If someone gave Yale a great painting, a great work of art, that painting would have no direct relationship to education, but the University would take great care of it anyway.  The goal needs to be convincing Yale that it has a work of art in that golf course!  I agree--excellence in all areas!  The problem is that most educators think, It's only a golf course.  They neglect to understand its historical significance and architectural brilliance.

Agreed. Why would Yale not want the best golf course of all universities in the country?

[Tom_Doak]

IMO Wayne Kozun is 1000% right...and I say that as a golf and golf architect nut and a former trustee of a very major university.  First of all, very very few university trustees know much about golf...much less the details involved in the care and maintenance of a golf course (and what makes a great golf course).  They know a fair amount about the education process...and that is what they care about and what they do (and will always focus on).

One of my projects was The Rawls Course for Texas Tech University.  The donor believed that a good golf course would be a great asset to the university -- that it would promote relaxed interaction between students and faculty, and that it would be a magnet for alumni to visit the school and share their wisdom.


That is CERTAINLY within the mission of the university, and would go out the window if the school sold off the golf course to an outside operator.


Also, I assume that the donor had it put in writing that the university would maintain the golf course in perpetuity . . . and that the gift of land for the Course at Yale had similar strings attached.

[Jim Hoak]

I agree, Tom.  The answer is not for Yale to sell off the course; it’s for the University to step up and do what’s right  with the tremendous asset with which it has been entrusted.

[Ira Fishman]

I agree, Tom.  The answer is not for Yale to sell off the course; it’s for the University to step up and do what’s right  with the tremendous asset with which it has been entrusted.

Entrusted? Please choose: Yale Golf Course or Beinecke Library? I love both of them. Yes, it is a false choice in the long term, but not so much in the strange world in which we live.


Ira ‘79.

[Jim Hoak]

Ira, with a $30 billion endowment, I hardly think it is an either/or.  They are both historically significant assets that need to be proudly preserved.