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mike_malone

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2003, 10:16:03 AM »
 I do not get too hungup on the top 100 list,particularly the last 50 on the list.As i said once before,it reminds me  of the NCAA basketball tournament.Tv commentators argue that Bowling Green should have been there instead of the sixth Big Ten team----neither of them is going anywhere.The top 25-30 are secure unless a truly extraordinary new one comes along.

     I do not care whether RG is in the top 100,but i like to compare it to some that are in that group.Maybe Wayne can weigh in here but how does it compare even to Shinnecock,Cherry Hill, TCC, and Cascades(forgot Lehigh)--other Flynns in the 100.


    Most people who know golf courses love to play RG and come away with fond memories of the course.That is enough for me.

   Just to be blasphemous,i only find Merion to be slightly better and most of that opinion is maintenance and history.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2003, 10:26:34 AM »
Mayday:

For a variety of reasons Flynn's Shinnecock would have to be at the top of his list of courses and my sense is that in not too much more time it very well might be at the top of everyone's list! The land is good at Shinnecock but not all of it--not in the sense that you apparently think golf land should be--but what Flynn did on those so-called "flatland holes" is simply brilliant in both routing and his follow-up "design". Flynn hit a bases loaded game winning homerun at Shinnecock in an overall architectural sense!

mike_malone

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2003, 10:30:55 AM »
 As we have removed trees over the last few years for agronomic reasons,i have noticed a change in member's attitudes.Many can see the benefit of opening up the views.

     I hope someday they see what i see----what Flynn had in mind.Hanse made a comment in his Master Plan about Flynn creating some treed holes and mostly open land.This is what RG should look like!!!!Although i disagree with one of his statements that Flynn did not want to plant trees in these open areas,i am sure he wanted only SOME trees in these open areas.These show up in his design.

   Not all the trees planted in the 30's are in the design,but the great majority reflect Flynn's writings on trees.

     The rolling green in the name is the flowing land.This must be seen to be appreciated.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2003, 10:48:06 AM »
But even with that I find a very interesting and general feeling from golfers who play Shinnecock the first time. It's not at all uncommon to hear them say after about the first 4-5 holes;

"Where's the meat on this course I've heard such awesome things about?"

This is Shinnecock's way of sliding even very fine golfers into the round. And then things start to change in variety, the  topography starts to build and you go rolling up and down and around the land for another third of the course and then return out to the "flatland" for a few more holes before building to that famous topographical finish.

But even from the start although Shinnecock in a strict architectural sense does not exactly have that "WOW" factor  to it's actual holes that some modern golfers think of and think is necessary (other than a few really "WOW views), it does have a pretty unique way of constantly holding even a very good player's attention and very tightly.

The interesting thing about Shinnecock is the nines were reversed from the way the course was originally planned. That happened in the first year or so. Shinnecock absolutely needs its nine to be in the order they are, in my opinon, because if it were otherwise the whole feeling of it would be different! The very same thing could be said for Merion, for instance---it's extremely important that its routing sequence be as it is!

TEPaul

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2003, 11:16:28 AM »
"You have OBVIOUSLY had a recent religious experience at Shinnecock Hills GOlf Club and are almost EVANGELICAL in your praise for SHGC.

Are we to believe that you are anything but not suggesting that it is the cat's ass?  Tell us Oh! great! master! Doyeeeeen of Doyens. !!!!"

Redanman:

No real need to get sarcastic, although frankly, I can never be too sure that you don't have some abiding need to be sarcastic!

But anyway, my feeling about Shinnecock is not some recent evangelical experience, as you suggest. I'm from Long Island, and have known that course well for perhaps fifty years now and have always thought of it as about the best I've ever known, in a general sense. The course is a great one for many reasons but it possesses that true championship aura and caliber to me and always has. That kind of thing, if one was to consider the course as a candidate as the best in the world would be a necessary ingredient I would think. Plus it's never changed or if so only very slightly through designed elasiticity use.

But if that makes the course a 10 on the Doak scale or #11, #6, #3 or #1 in the world, I'll leave that for people like you to discuss and argue over! To me, in a general and overall sense, it'd probably be #1 in the world.

But if I lived out there and could play anything every day I'd prefer to play NGLA about 4 times a week, Maidstone at least twice and Shinnecock just once a week.

But that doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of the world standing of Shinnecock just more to do with my own game and capabilities.


wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2003, 02:11:38 PM »
While I abhor ratings of golf courses nearly as much as Tom Paul (it has devolved into a mechanism to get guys on courses and a conduit of political processes rather than the best use that is spotlighting great golf architecture and being a catalyst for proper restoration and the furtherance of great architecture projects) I do think it interesting to look at comparisons and contrasts of golf courses by the same architect, those in the same time period, and in the same geographical location and/or agronomic and soil type.  

Tom Paul is absolutely correct, there is Shinnecock Hills and there is everything else in his portfolio of course designs, that is with Flynn's contributions at Merion aside.  Was this because the land was so good?  Probably not, the land surrounding SHGC seems to me to be better--NGLA's property for instance is much better in a general regard.  But SHGC is great because Flynn's concepts and executions were great.  

I agree to a point with Mike Malone's observation that parkland courses with elevation changes are a basis for great golf courses, but there are many so-so courses on this kind of terrain.  Far more than great ones, by definintion.  Really great courses come from really great architects irrespective of terrain.  

Did master architects utilize what was available on the ground better than others?  Of course, this is the main reason why they were master architects.  Did they do it better than architects of today?  For the vast majority, yes since they used more of what was there in their plans.  In Flynn's case, where he did make large changes to the site, he did so with an eye towards naturalism that hid his handiwork.  Maybe that's why he is less admired than some.  Most figure his work is mostly using nature, where it is clearly a combination of using nature and immitating nature.

Flynn was able to design great courses on terrain varying from flat such as (Kittansett, Boca Raton North and South, Atlantic City, Opa Locka, etc); courses that are both flat in parts and undulating in others (Cascades, Shinnecock, etc); courses that are rolling (TCC, Rolling Green, Lancaster and other Philly area courses); and to mountainous courses (Eagles Mere Old and New).  Some land and soil conditions are better for golf than others.  Better architects can overcome most obstacles given certain budgetary constraints.  Granted the Golden Age architects didn't deal with the environmental issues that the architects of today have to and this needs to be considered.

I do believe that with the continued execution of Gil's master plan and an incorporation of some of my own ideas (which I have put to paper and will send to anyone who cares to see them) can place RGGC second to SHGC in the Flynn portfolio and in the highest regard of anyone be it someone's top 50 or another's top 100 or someone else's top 20.  

In the case of RGGC, it all comes together; the ground is first rate for a parkland course, the routing is superior, and the variety of holes, shot testing, and appeal to all levels of golfers (depending upon what tees are played from).  The maintenance practices integrated to the architecture needs to be worked on to optimize the "Maintenance Meld."  A number of trees (both for agronomic reasons and where they are impeding strategy) need to come down as all cognscenti who have visited can attest.  I'd say the course is only about 75% of where it can be if properly restored and conditioned.  Given that people already think it great is a credit to its architectural underpinning that is somewhat hidden.  If it comes closer to its potential, it will be much more regarded than it already is.  

Ran was visiting not long ago and he compared RGGC to Cascades in hole by hole match play and it fared well.  Ran's regard for Cascades is well known, and I believe his analysis is deeply considered.  My feeling is that RGGC in its current state will match up well to any Flynn and comes close but in the end loses to Merion.  Now if the master plan and the Wayne Morrison variation is fully implemented....watch out!  ;)

GeoffreyC

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2003, 02:52:41 PM »
Wayne

I would have to respectfully disagree with you about the rating process and more specifically the reason(s) thoughtful raters participate in this process.

Its all too easy to say its about access to courses, free golf "and a conduit of political processes rather than the best use that is spotlighting great golf architecture and being a catalyst for proper restoration and the furtherance of great architecture projects" (whatever that is).

While any of us could see courses on our own and evaluate their architecture, playability and relative position in the golf world acording to a given criteria, what is wrong with sharing our opinions with a panel of other enthusiasts for publication in a magazine? At GW, the raters are encouraged to attend workshops to play and also to hear talks and educate ourselves further about modern architecture, restorations of classic courses in a concrete and constructive manner (the French Lick get together is a great example).

What is the difference between my filling out a ballot each year and "Ran was visiting not long ago and he compared RGGC to Cascades in hole by hole match play and it fared well.  Ran's regard for Cascades is well known, and I believe his analysis is deeply considered.  My feeling is that RGGC in its current state will match up well to any Flynn and comes close but in the end loses to Merion." your "publishing" your opinions here on GCA.

There are certainly raters for all the publications that abuse the privilege and they should be removed from the panels.  There are also those who abuse this forum with their posts and their hounding of Tom Paul to play Pine Valley  ::) and they too should be weeded out.

As example of good things that come of ratings, I can absolutely nominate Fenway Golf Club.  They benefited from a great restoration by Gil Hanse and that got them the recognition and placement of the GW Top 100 classic list. I know for a fact that the membership is extremely proud of that ranking and they were in general made more aware of their heritage and they are guarding it because of this new recognition.  The powers that be now have the positive reinforcement (through their rating) to and trying to make their course better THE RIGHT WAY. Rating can be an educational process for a club.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2003, 02:53:56 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2003, 03:27:24 PM »
Geoff,

I never meant to imply that all raters and all rating systems are bad.  In fact there are a number of qualified raters that I have met.  Yet, my opinion is just that it is a waste of time and remains so.  

Can you not really see the difference between the expression of my thoughts in this forum and those in a commercial publication?  Published on-line and published in a commercial magazine are very different to me and I'm surprised you don't feel the same way.  

GW is, in my mind, the leader in establishing as good a process as possible.  The general nature of the endeavor remains flawed in my opinion.  

I agree with you that there are cases, probably more than I realize, where ratings have encouraged membership to seek an alternative course of action (generally from doing nothing or doing something stupid).  It is not easy to quantify.  Why do you think there is a direct relationship between the ratings and Fenway's actions.  Do you know that the membership was concerned about ratings and this inspired them to do the work?  It seems to me that there was a reaction to their work done independent of ratings, or lack thereof, and they were rewarded for it.  Will there be a ripple effect at other clubs?  I'm not so sure.  

Have I been tainted by the likes of JakaB and not realized it?  Looking at this post, I may come across as cynical.  I hope not.

When raters have conferences not hosted by courses that are being rated (better not to have them at golf venues at all---smells of impropriety) and uses objective quantifiable methods and removes subjective loosely defined categories, I may come around.  Listen, if all raters were as deliberate and considerate as you, Cirba, Crosby, etc.  it would be a better process.  

When I look at the results of restorations on a course such as your home course and the fact that it doesn't plummet in the ratings, where is the outcry?  It seems as though some people mail in the ratings.  I can cite other examples such as Cherry Hills (see, I'm not blinded by the Flynn light  ;)) that rest on laurels long lost.  Rating results are used as a tool by the magazines to sell copies.  When it is used as a tool that educates members and demonstrates real consequences after improper work as well as work done properly, then I will embrace the concept better.  The magazines should include more analysis in these articles and less list-based fluff.  

The majority don't want it though.  They want to post their new 250k membership course on the "Best New" list and show it to their friends.  Too many courses show up on the list for no reason--not because the public ones advertise is it?--and then rightly drop out of sight.  Is it because the process inevitably works out or was flawed from the beginning?  Hard to say.

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2003, 03:31:31 PM »
BTW, Geoff.  Under no circumstances should a rater not pay regular green fees.  That part of the process is wrong on several levels.  I think if the rating process truly serves to educate memberships and facilitate better golf design, it has a worthy place.  I'm just not convinced that it does.  So, while I highly respect your opinions, I don't share them all.  Keep making the process better and I will champion your cause--not that that is worth much.

GeoffreyC

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2003, 03:43:50 PM »
Wayne

I understand your position and its also not a "cause" of mine. I participate because I learn and I get a chance to formalize my ideas about golf courses through thinking about my ballot and how different courses fit into a bigger picture. I also know that guys like Cirba, Crosby, Vostinak, and others are true scholars who are not after free golf but about learning more and enjoying the company of like minded individuals on the golf course.

The people like Steve Frankel at Fenway should be commended on their own for choosing a great architect like Gil and getting the membership to agree to their master plan.  The recognition came afterwards.  However, the positive reinforcement has made the general membership realize their course of action was a good one and subsequent work and maintenance of what they have will be much easier.

The magazines can use the ratings to sell copies.  I use the process in a different way.  We all win. I don't want to argue with you because we all know that there are bad raters and better raters.  I just don't think the whole process should be demonized.

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2003, 03:45:52 PM »
Amen, brother Geoff.  I agree with you wholeheartedly!  Have a great weekend.  Bundle up out on the course this weekend...a cold spell is upon us.
Regards,
Wayne

DPL11

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2003, 06:41:30 PM »
First of all, I think they should take all the Top 100 lists and burn them  >:(. It's amazing to me that everyones golf course is better than Hidden Creek. I think C&C did a fabulous job with that site, and I think that its a good site.

I love RG, and if I believed in lists, I think that it should definately be ranked, but why does HC get pulled into almost every thread that rank is mentioned in?

Yes, HC is built on flat ground compared to RG, but does a good golf course have to be on hilly terrain? Should no more courses be constructed if the land is not what we consider "perfect for construction".

Is HC the only golf course in the Top 100 that doesn't belong according to alot of you?

It makes me wonder, how did HC get onto the Golf Magazine Top 100 list anyway?

Yes, I am a member of HC, but I chose to join there because I think its a great course.

Just a few questions for the experts.

DPL11

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2003, 07:13:26 PM »
DPL11,

Since I don't refer to lists, I couldn't tell you if HC was on a list or not.  Since I have not yet been to HC (opportunity to go but not the time to do so...yet) I can't consider its merits.  But who cares if its on a list, not on a list, or disparaged by some as not belonging?  What counts is what you think and how much you enjoy it.  Everything else is subjective.  If you look at my earlier post, I truly believe that great courses can exist on any piece of land, flat or rolling.  It certainly helps to have a great grounds for golf, but its better to have a great architect (or pair of architects in the case of C & C.   Is Muirfield, TOC, Kittansett, 1/2 of Cascades, 1/2 of Shinnecock flawed because they are on flat ground?  HC looks great to me from Ran's pictures.  But can anyone really say course #99 is better than course #101 let alone course #200?  So who really cares?  Not I and I certainly don't get America's preoccupation with lists.  To me, it is simply enables people not to think for themselves and take the easy way out.  People should think and decide for themselves, in everything.  

DPL11

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2003, 07:26:15 PM »
Wayne,

I couldn't agree with you more, but some people on here have a real hard-on for constantly bringing HC & "the list" up over and over. It's mind numbing.

We went from discussing how great RG is, and the next thing you know, somebody starts on HC. Where the hell did that come from?

I happen to love RG. It's one of my favorite courses, anywhere. I also love HC, but I have a tough time comparing both of them. They couldn't be any more different.

When you get the time, come on down. I'd be happy to show you what alot of guys on here can't understand. If you don't happen to like it, thats fine.

DPL11

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2003, 07:45:57 PM »
DPL11, thank you for the invitation.  I look forward to getting over there in the spring and would enjoy meeting you.  Let's stay in touch.  My email is in my profile.  Seems like winter will be upon us this weekend, so maybe it won't be that long from now.  
Regards,
Wayne

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2003, 07:58:47 PM »
Wayne & DPL11,

It is difficult for me to even compare HC (played) and RG (feel like I have played). After hanging out here for a few years, I basically see courses as :

1. Parkland - RG, Merion, Winged Foot
2. Heathland-like - Hidden Creek, Blue Heron Pines -Smyers, Beechtree
3. Seaside - Links-like - Shinnecock, National, Cypress

There are a few courses that may cross over, but not many at least in my mind. I am surprised that none of the ratings groups have picked up on this and broken it out is some sort of "Terrain" ranking.

In terms of Golf Digest switching of Pine Valley (have not played) and Pebble Beach between # 1 and # 2, are they really comparable? Maybe a question for a separate thread.

DPL11

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2003, 08:09:38 PM »
Mike,

When I think of my favorite 5 golf courses I have played, it is hard to determine how I would rank one over another.
They are all so good in their own ways. It could come down to variables like the weather, my group, or any other little difference on the particular day I played them.

DPL11

Jason Mandel

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2003, 08:22:56 PM »
i have played RG and have not yet had the oppurtunity to play Hidden Creek, but i have seen pictures and i have talked to people both on and off this site that have played there.

Let me say this, i don't think you can compare C&C to Flynn's, its just not fair to compare either.  Like we said about comparing Flynn courses before, you can't compare them because its like comparing apples and oranges, weill comparing Flynn and C&C is totally different than that. but in the same sense, u can't compare them.

lets just take them for what they are, both great golf courses.  one comment i heard about Hidden Creek that really stuck with me, even though I havent played there, is that THERE IS NOT A BAD hole out there, every hole is solid.

I think people may have been a little taken aback by HC's ranking in Golfworld, but hey, rankings in the first place are supposed to be controversial.  i will say this, the ranking for HC would is more beneficcial for them, in the early stages of their club, trying to build a strong membership, than it would be for RG, a strong club with a multi-year waiting list, maybe this snub, would even help entice the membership to go along with Gil's masterplan with fulll force.  

Here's a good idea if you live in Philadelphia, Rolling Green as your home course, and Hidden Creek as your shore course, i don't think too many people would complain about that ;)
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

mike_malone

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2003, 10:10:25 PM »
 DPL11
    i interjected HC into this thread because i happened to play it for the first time on Wednesday.I liked it very much.Then when i got home to see the RG thread still alive,i felt that i should share that IMO RG should be rated higher.
    Of course i am biased but i just believe RG is better than many courses i see rated in the top 100.

   I appreciate your kind words about RG.I would love to belong to HC if i spent time at the shore and look forward to playing it again.
AKA Mayday

DTaylor18

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2003, 11:11:47 PM »
There is no doubt that RG is a great course.  I really enjoyed my visit there.  I liken it a lot to Charles River right outside of Boston.  Both are wonderful places in the suburbs of big Northeastern cities that get less acclaim than their more famous neighbors. however, both in my opinon are as good as some of the Top 100 courses, whatever that means.  Both were done by top architects with great greens in parkland settings.  Regardless of their numbers, I would play either course any time and know that I would enjoy it a lot.  I sense a lot of those memberships know that, making those places all the more special.

And Mike, excellent point about comparing types of courses.  Oyu and I have talked many times and it is extremely diffcult to rank courses that are so different in style.  A lot of it would just come down to personal preference.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2003, 05:59:42 AM »
I played at least five rank munis this year, how about the rest of you?
Rman,

Four:

Mosholu
Pelham
Split Rock
Pacific Grove

I understand statistically how the individual rater rates a course for his publication versus his personnal ranking, since there is a quantitative-statistical sheet for Golfweek. My guess is that most raters personal list are more qualitative-gut feel and emotional.

I guess my question is geared more to the Brad Klein's and other editors in the industry. Unfortunately, New Jersey has only one pretend links course in Brigantine, so we can't get our friend Matt Ward to lead the change ;).

wsmorrison

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2003, 07:50:11 AM »
redanman,

This "rater bashing" that you refer to is not a personalized condemnation towards you or any other rater.  It just has never made much sense to me and I guess I jumped on this topic in the RG thread perhaps inappropriately.  I know a lot of people on here are raters, it takes a passionate enthusiast to be one and be a member of this website and act like we do.  I can see the value of meeting people of like interests and even think that GCA.com is having an impact on golf itself--a great value and responsibility.  However, in your message, you talk about the methodology, but not the value of the effort. Please explain to me your feelings on the value of the process.

You mention:

"Raters are hopefully folks who have a wide experience and hopefully educated opinion of golf course architecture, know what they are looking at, how to put it into perspective and can separate their own game or experience from that of the golf course."

And if they don't?  What good is a list by such a panel?  The real point is what good is any list?  It appeals to people's egos if they belong to a club moving up the ratings.  But does it motivate members of clubs that are moving down a list or off it to do a sympathetic restoration or is it more likely that they will do things destructive to the design intent?  Does it have any effect at all?  If there was a constructive result and golf architecture is somehow protected by the evaluation process, then I'd be all for it.  If not, it serves no worthwhile purpose and is not a badge, or bagtag, that is of any real merit.

You further say:

Golf Courses and their design is art and art interpretation is subjective.  It is also very romantic and emotional.

Do you go around the Louvre and rate paintings, sculpture, and other art.  Do you rate movies?  Perhaps you don't have the same feeling for them that you have for golf courses, but the endeavor is equally inane.

"Everyone here on this board has an opinion and can develop a personal ranking, but it is not as statistically valid as a rating panel's colectively developed set."

Does this mean to say that a personal ranking is less valid than a rating panel?  I'd rather make up my own mind and could care less about someone else's rankings.  The only useful purpose is if it serves golf's greater good and I don't see the evidence.  For every Fenway success are 10 Yales.  The energy raters put into their efforts, and I'm sure it is considerable, in my opinion might be better served to help educate and serve architectural integrity in other ways.  I'm not exactly sure how, but each could decide for themselves.  Given that the public seems to embrace these lists demonstrates one thing, popularity, but it doesn't mean it is of any real worth.  Like many things, the masses usually want people to think for them and make life easy.

Honestly, I feel it is a complete waste of time.  While there are certainly a small percentage of raters that can see the (w)hole picture in an informed way, and make a strong case for their analysis, I'd rather go on my own methods of discovery and interactions with my GCA mentors and friends.  Tom Paul and so many others have taught me many things.  One of the best methods to understand a golf course and some of the most fun experiences is to go to the maintenance sheds, talk with the superintendent and his crew and walk around the golf course with them.  By and large they are very approachable, maybe because I'm usually with the man himself, Tommy Paul, but I found it remarkable how open these hard working men are and how informative they can be.  I learn and apply this to my analysis and find enjoyment with the growing perspective.

Although I've had my final say on ratings (not raters) I will keep an open mind going forward.  

DPL11

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2003, 11:41:00 AM »
redanman,

I am aware of how the ratings are supposed to work and what people opinions are supposed to be based on. I was a superintendent at a rated golf course, so I know the process.  ::)

I was pissed at the interjection of Hidden Creek everytime someone thinks their course should be rated, and isn't. I think the whole rating process blows, but of course I am not stupid enough to not realize that it sells magazines. I don't agree with alot of Matt Ward's ratings, but thats his opinion, and he's entitled to it.

My problem is not with the "how the data is compiled", but why it should even be performed. I think it is a huge waste of time. PERIOD!

Opinion are like a**holes, and everybody has one, and that is what the ratings are, opinions.

DPL11

George Pazin

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2003, 12:51:45 PM »
Do you go around the Louvre and rate paintings, sculpture, and other art.  Do you rate movies?  Perhaps you don't have the same feeling for them that you have for golf courses, but the endeavor is equally inane.

As I said above, I think the greatest service that they do, right or wrong is the stimulation of interest in architecture.  It generates much more interest in the uninitiated than an article by an author well-known to us here.

It is the difference in these two views that leads to the difference in opinions on ratings. One group views ratings as stimulating discussion, the other views it as hindering. Me, I tend to view it as replacing. Rather than discussing the merits of courses discussed, rankings/ratings discussions seem to quickly descend into pissing contests. The biggest problem I have with golf course ranking is that it leads to statements like "Geronimo can't carry Cascata's jockstrap" rather than a discussion of each course's merits.

Wayne, it's funny that you mention rating art or movies. I have a few friends with which I have a running dialogue on ranking or rating almost everything imaginable. One is a former business colleage that I would drive back & forth to Florida with twice a year (my trade show booth didn't travel well by plane) & we would often rank things just to kill time & foment discussion. Best band, best CD, favorite song, singer, best restaurant, states with best roads, hottest women, people we'd "trade" lives with - anything and everything was fair game & usually led to lots of interesting discussions.

Maybe the problem with rating/ranking golf courses lies more with the emotional attachment we all have with them. It's fun to discuss the 70s Steelers versus the 80s Niners, but I'm not looking to rank my favorite sister!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2003, 12:56:49 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

mike_malone

Re:Rolling Green
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2003, 03:14:18 PM »
 DPL11
   I apologize if i stirred up a hornet's nest.It seems that HC is rated in the golfweek list of top 100 modern.It that case i am offbase with my concern,since RG is in the classic 100.
AKA Mayday

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