9-Ball: Mid Pines vs Pine Needles vs Southern Pines (all holes scored)

[Jason Thurman]

With Southern Pines assuming management under the same group that owns Pine Needles and Mid Pines, and considering that all three are accessible Ross courses of comparable architectural quality in one of the great golf destination areas in the US, let's match them up against each other in a game of 9-ball.


We'll take our time and go hole-by-hole. This works just like the match play course vs. course concept, except we have three courses, so we'll use 9-ball rules. For those unfamiliar, 9-ball is a points game in which 9 points are awarded per hole based on how the competitors score, in one of four points combinations as follows:


5-3-1: Player A wins the hole outright (5 pts), Player B has the next best score (3 pts), and Player C finishes last (1 pt)
5-2-2: Player A wins the hole outright (5 pts), Players B and C tie each other (2 pts apiece)
4-4-1: Players A and B tie for the low score on the hole (4 pts apiece), Player C finishes last (1 pt)
3-3-3: All three players tie on the hole (3 pts apiece)


For example, and to kick things off, let's look at the first hole at each course.


As much as I love the first hole at Pine Needles because I reached it in two on my only play and made a tap-in birdie, I must admit that the opener across the street at Mid Pines is better. Hell, you could tell me you think Mid Pines' first hole is the best opening hole in the US and I wouldn't bat an eyelash. It instantly comes to mind for me when I think about the great first holes I've played. And yet, the one at Southern Pines has a broader-shouldered quality that I enjoy and is a similarly excellent down-and-up par 4. In the end, I think I have to respect that the approach shot at Mid Pines just has a little more charm than the one at Southern - I like that the green sits a little further up the hill and the touch of extra drama it provides. I have Mid Pines winning this one, Southern Pines second, and Pine Needles a very respectable third.


Hole 1: Mid Pines (5), Southern Pines (3), Pine Needles (1)


Overall:
Mid Pines - 5
Southern Pines - 3
Pine Needles - 1

[Jay Mickle]

Mid Pines  5
Pine Needles 3
Elks   1 (perhaps the weakest hole on the course)


I expect that with work on the Elks that there will be significant movement in a years time and even more as the Elks work matures.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’m with Jay on this one. The first at Southern Pines is easily the weakest of the bunch for me.

[Jason Thurman]

Jay, I've only played each course once. Why so low on number 1 at Southern Pines? I recall being a little nonplussed by the green, but loved the way the hole sat on the ground. It's hard to articulate why. I might just be a sucker for holes that curve gracefully right-to-left down a gradual slope. There's a similar looking hole near the clubhouse of Wichita CC that I stared at for about 4 hours while drinking through storms last year. Plenty of other holes were visible near the clubhouse, but that's the one I'm really bummed I didn't get to take a swing at (we never made it onto the course that day).


You mention in another thread that SP probably has the best land of the three courses, and I probably agree. While obviously scruffier than the courses up the road, I wouldn't be shocked by anyone rating it their favorite of the three in current state. I expect it will hold its own very well in this exercise.

[Carl Rogers]

Have played all 3 multiple times and felt that SP was not a let down, just not all the whistle and bells of the higher price point.
Agree that the strength of SP are the par 3's.

[Jay Mickle]

I might just be a sucker for holes that curve gracefully right-to-left

I think that you will find that this hole is just about straight from tee to green. It is a pleasant opener.

[James Reader]

A complete aside, but I’ve never understood why this is played as 9 points per hole (5-3-1).  It works perfectly well with 6 points per hole (4-2-0) - actually easier to keep track of because you keep resetting the last man to zero.  It’s not so that no-one feels bad about not getting any points on a hole is it?

[Brock Lynch]

We use James' method when we play this game. I also agree with Jay on the first hole of the match as Mid Pines wins on beauty alone and the first at Southern Pines is very ordinary.


Mid Pines 4
Pine Needles 2
Southern Pines 0

[Jay Mickle]

A complete aside, but I’ve never understood why this is played as 9 points per hole (5-3-1).  It works perfectly well with 6 points per hole (4-2-0) - actually easier to keep track of because you keep resetting the last man to zero.  It’s not so that no-one feels bad about not getting any points on a hole is it?

We play this game with 3somes and it is called baseball.  Two 9 hole(9 inning matches) 9 points /hole. Your feelings are of no concern to me

[Peter Flory]

Too many Pines in the names.  I find it disorienting. 

[Jason Thurman]

I get that the math still works when you play with 6 points, but what the hell do you call that game? 9-Ball and Baseball are both good names for games... obviously. But you can't call it 9-ball or Baseball when you're playing with 6 pts, and 6-ball doesn't make any sense.


Let's move to the next couple of holes. It intrigues me how we see some similar routing concepts as we move to holes 2 and 3 at each course. At both PN and SP, the second tee shot is played semi-blind over the crest of a hill, with PN offering a longish par 4 and SP a shortish par 5. To my recollection, the tee shot on 2 at Needles requires a little more attention paid to the line taken. Hugging the left side of the fairway shortens the distance to reach the downslope, and probably makes sense for a shorter hitter. On my one play, I went too far left and bounded down into the pine straw, which was probably my first experience with that particular type of playing surface. I recall a downhill approach from there to a beautifully sited green, pushed up in the back and falling away pretty severely for misses long.


Meanwhile, Mid Pines' second hole is just a lovely par 3 over a valley, with scary swaths of sand surrounding a green that appears awfully shallow from the tee. It's sort of a perfect par 3 really, not unlike the third at Southern Pines, which also plays over a valley. When contrasting those two holes, the renovation work at Mid Pines really shines as it's just a visually stunning hole with all the exposed scrub while Southern Pines' third doesn't quite make you want to grab your camera as quickly. And yet, the green at 3 at SP might make it the more difficult hole even though it doesn't look quite as scary.


Speaking of par 3s, the third at Pine Needles is just a beautiful little hole, straddling a marsh and tucked among the pines. Speaking of spots that make you want to grab a camera, it's not very long and the green isn't horrifying, but it has a wonderful sense of place, which I think of as one of Pine Needles' strongest attributes throughout really. There's this nice balance between the quality of the golf and the quality of the surroundings, and the golf course is hardly ever so audacious as to take your attention away from its setting. I don't know if I'm describing it well, but that balance of quality golf and fantastic setting is probably my single favorite thing about Pine Needles.


As for the third at Mid Pines, it's a bit of a letdown for me. Kind of a low-lying, marshy, narrowish hole. I respect its challenge as a driving hole, and I understand that it's a pretty good effort in a tough portion of the property, but it's still one of the low moments for me among all three courses. Which I guess, really, is sort of a compliment because it's certainly not a bad hole.


2nd hole:
MP 5, PN 3, SP 1


3rd hole:
PN 4, SP 4, MP 1


Overall through 3:
MP 11
PN 8
SP 8

[Jay Mickle]

2nd
MP  4 Visual winner by far. Best par 3 on the course.
PN  4. Downhill, green front to back, great design even with no bunkers.
SP.  1. Fun hole but too much competition here.


3rd
MP  3 Improvement on this hole to elevate the entire course
PN  3 Pretty but not much substance
SP  3 Solid par 3

[Brock Lynch]

I think Southern Pines may take Pine Needles on Hole 2 as the green/green complex has some interest. Otherwise, I agree with Jason on holes 2 & 3.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Hole 2:
4 - Pine Needles
4 - Mid Pines
1 - Southern Pines

Hole 3:
4 - Pine Needles
4 - Mid Pines
1 - Southern Pines

Southern Pines picks from here a good bit, IMO, but I'm a sucker for a good little par three (#3 PN).

[Brock Lynch]

Jason,


Did PN & SP concede after 3 holes??

[Jay Mickle]

Hole 4:


MP 5 A great driveable par 4 despite The Tree.
SP 3 Requires accurate approach to 2 tier green
PN 1 Solid par 4

[Brock Lynch]

Jay,


That's a pretty good poke to drive it near the green on MP #4. I always hit hybrid trying to keep it down the left side. Anyway, I agree with your breakdown on hole #4. It looks to me that this may be a tough go for Pine Needles and Southern Pines vs Mid Pines. Too many solid to very solid holes at Mid Pines. Maybe, in an effort to shorten this up, what holes at Pine Needles are better than their counterparts at Mid Pines? I'm thinking Pine Needles vs Southern Pines is a more interesting match-up.

[Jay Mickle]

I only include it as a driveable par 4 as that is how the long hitters will play it. If played from the front of the tee box many more would take up the challenge. SP is strong on 5 & 6. SP 7 is a wonderful par 3 but not competition for MP. 8-11 can split a variety of ways. Mid Pines won’t loose any from 12 on in my view.

[Jason Thurman]

4 at PN is solid but not on the level of MP or SP. 4 at MP is a great hole and a referendum on how a tree in the right type of spot can create significant interest. Is it plausible, though, that a “tweener” hole like 4 at Southern Pines can be better than a drivable par 4? In the way that it is possible for a world-class lager to be better than a great IPA, I say yes.


I suspect I’ve played about 150 drivable par 4s. 4 at Mid Pines is about my 20th favorite. It’s roughly in the 75th percentile. Of the roughly 1800 “tweener” 375ish yard par 4s I’ve played, 4 at SP is clearly top 50. That’s about 95th percentile.


I wanted to figure out a way to score this one 4-4-1 but I talked myself into:


SP 5
MP 3
PN 1


MP 14
SP 12
PN 9

[Brock Lynch]

#4 at SP is a good hole. But, the straight uphill approach and a green complex that seemed markedly different from the others gives MP #4 the nod.

[Jason Thurman]

Brock, the things you cite as detriments are exactly what I think makes the 4^th at Southern Pines so excellent. It’s the challenge of gauging an uphill shot off an uphill lie to a green that demands excellent positioning that really makes the hole for me. It’s just a great piece of golfing ground that poses a compelling challenge on each shot, with a lot of variety from play-to-play based on where your tee shot finishes and where the day’s pin position is.
 
I don’t recall the green’s character being markedly unique compared to the rest of the course, although I do feel like I recall the transition from back right tier to front-center tier being a little abrupt (which I felt on a few holes on the course… 1 and 7 for a couple examples). The fact that they felt like “tiers” makes me wonder how this one might have changed since Ross’ original layout. Hell, for that matter, I’m really just assuming that Ross even grassed greens at Southern Pines given that he originally built many of the courses in the area with sand greens. I’d welcome any historical insight to how the course has evolved that anyone can offer, given that my knowledge of the place is almost exclusively based on one visit in August 2018. I know Fought was involved
 
Let’s get on to 5:
Mid Pines and Southern Pines both offer par 5s that tumble downhill, at least for a while (Mid Pines eventually climbs back up). For me, 5 is another hole where the superb terrain at Southern Pines really shines. Mid Pines’ 5^th feels a little awkward to me. It gets a little marshy again down at the bottom of the descent, and the pond that juts into the fairway feels a little out of character. The land occupied by the first five holes at Mid Pines feels separate from the rest of the course for me – it’s a little more abruptly sloped than the rest of the property. The drama of the terrain produces 3 of the best holes in the county, but it doesn’t work quite as well for me here. Southern Pines is sparsely bunkered and a little rough around the edges maintenance-wise – I’ve seen postcards of the approach to 5 at Mid Pines, but not at Southern Pines. Still, there’s no question for me that Southern Pines’ 5^th is the better par 5 here. I like that the downhill slope begs for an aggressive lash from a longer hitter trying to roll one down to within a mid-iron to reach the green, and the punishment available for a loose swing. And there’s just something lovely about the graceful sweep of the hole down the hill… I don’t know if I can nail it down any better than that, but it’s a hole that melds seamlessly to its setting. It feels like exactly the correct golf hole for this exact piece of land.
 
Regardless, these are two holes where even a 10 handicap can get hungry for a birdie on the tee. Contrast that with the tough par 3 5^th at Pine Needles, playing uphill with a green that provides no respite. It’s stoutness contrasts nicely with the delicate 3^rd a couple holes before. I probably don’t enjoy the hole quite as much as I enjoy the 5^th at Southern Pines, but I certainly respect it.
 
SP – 4
PN – 4
MP – 1
 
Overall:
SP – 16
MP – 15
PN – 13

[Jason Thurman]

Even if I'm mostly talking to myself in this thread, I'm going to keep it going. I'm enjoying the exercise, personally, and it's threatening to recalibrate what I think of these three courses a bit. I'm surprised Pine Needles hasn't scored higher for me, at least so far, and it feels like I might have underestimated just how much I enjoyed Southern Pines.


Southern Pines finally takes a clear backseat on the 6th hole. I just don't love this one. It's a low-lying medium-long par 4 that plays pretty much straight away, and it lacks the land character that the course's best holes have. I also recall the green feeling a little awkward. The details are a little murky in my head, but I recall something wide and shallow and sort of abruptly shaped, which seemed to be the case on a handful of holes out there where the putting surfaces felt awkwardly integrated.


While I like the 6th at Pine Needles, I also think the run from 4-6 is a little forgettable from a golf architecture standpoint. The setting is awesome - I'll never forget the feeling and scents of being among the tall pines (it should be noted that Pine Needles was my second NC Sandhills course, after playing Tobacco Road earlier that morning, so it was really my first exposure to golf in that magnificent pine-surrounded setting). I recall 6 being a good, stout hole, uphill and fairly long, but not particularly loaded with charm.


6 at Mid Pines is a bit of a transition hole in my mind, taking us from that southeast corner of the property where the first 5 holes lay all the way to the northwest portion, really, where we'll play the next several holes. And while it lacks the land movement of the five holes before, it still commands full attention on every shot. It drapes beautifully over the land, and by moving us out of the woods it really exposes the glory of the reclamation of the sandy barrens that are so unique to the Pinehurst area. It's an excellent hole, and a necessary one for making the routing work, and clearly the pick of the three here in my book.


MP - 5
PN - 3
SP - 1


MP - 20
SP - 16
PN - 16

[Jason Thurman]

I'll talk myself through three holes and close out the front nines today:


I'm an outspoken longtime Pine Needles apologist and would tell you it's my favorite of the three courses, but it's sputtering a bit through 6 holes in this hole-by-hole comparison. Again, 7 is a solid hole, a stout hole, but not an especially interesting hole as I recall it. Keep it left off the tee and hit two solid shots. 7 at Mid Pines is similar in some ways - long enough and uphill enough to count as "stout" - but the land is just a little more interesting and I at least remember a demanding and interesting green. As a shortish par 3, 7 at Southern Pines is tough to compare to these par 4s. I love how the hole is sited, with the green clinging to the top of a knoll, but this is a spot where Southern Pines' lack of "refinement" hurts a bit. The hole as presented today just doesn't leap to life the way that the best par 3s in the sandhills do. Imagine the left side of this green with exposed sandy floor.


5-2-2 in favor of Mid Pines.


8 at Mid Pines just doesn't sing to me though. It's a perfectly fine par 3, with plenty of width for its length, but I just don't like trekking back into a hallway of trees after the broad-shouldered feel of most of the preceding half-dozen holes. Meanwhile, Southern Pines continues to do its thing. Its 8th hole isn't dressed up as fancy as the other two courses, but the land movement is fabulous and the hole falls appealingly down the hill with a gentle curve that makes for a very compelling tee shot. We give tons of love to the driveable par 4s of the world thanks to their options and playability for all, but I think this is a far more interesting 375ish yard hole than the average <350 yard one. Realistically, depending on how I approach the hole, I could take lines as far as 40 yards or so apart off the tee. But then, if I'm going to herald 8 at Southern Pines, I must give 8 at Pine Needles its due. Similar length, similar but more pronounced sweep from left to right, similarly charming piece of land, similar but even more extreme options, and probably a more interesting green and surroundings if I had to pick.


5(PN)-3(SP)-1(MP)


9 at Pine Needles is just wonderful, thanks to its excellent green complex. When I first played it, it was my first experience with a southern course sited among tall pines. Coming to a green perched above surrounding hollows like this felt like it might be as close as I'd ever get to Augusta National (and still does, for that matter). 9 at Southern Pines is another good par 3. I sometimes accuse Ross' work of being a little dull or less artistic, relatively speaking, than Mackenzie or Tillinghast. But thinking through Southern Pines, hole-for-hole, it's pretty amazing how gently each hole sits on the land and how absolutely right-in-place every hole feels relative to the land on which it's sited.  This course draws so much appeal from the way it incorporates lay-of-the-land features on such appealing land, with the routing traversing it in a way that just feels natural and "correct." Meanwhile, this sentence alone is too much attention to pay to 9 at Mid Pines, which might be the lamest hole among the three courses.


5(PN)-3(SP)-1(MP)


Overall:
PN 28
MP 27
SP 24

[Carl Rogers]

I am less enamored with PN 6 & 7 as many.  But look at PN 8 & 9 as very very good.


MP 9 flies under the radar.  It strikes me as a hole a scratch could bogey and a 15 handicapper could birdie.


I really like SP 5 - 9.


If the 3 courses had the same price point, how would that effect the score ?Presentation does count.


SP is a good example of the whole is more than the sum of it's parts.

[Jason Thurman]

I am less enamored with PN 6 & 7 as many.  But look at PN 8 & 9 as very very good.

Agreed, on both fronts.

If the 3 courses had the same price point, how would that effect the score ?Presentation does count.

It's kind of a chicken or egg question for me I think. If Southern Pines charged $180 for my round there, I would've probably been a little annoyed. On the other hand, I think they'd have a hard time charging $180 without also "sprucing the place up" just a bit. I slightly spruced up Southern Pines could very easily be the best of the three courses, at least through 9 holes, in my mind. It's barely trailing in my book as it is, and I keep thinking that it probably consistently has the holes I actually like the best of the three, at least in terms of their fundamentals.

SP is a good example of the whole is more than the sum of it's parts.

Kind of agree, kind of think the parts themselves are excellent and just lacking some of the polish of their neighbors. I was reading Zen Golf the other night and the Buddhist parable about a kid putting gold plating on a clay statue. Of course the plating is beautiful, of course it falls off, but then his grandfather or somebody starts wiping the clay and he realizes it was a gold statue all along that had just fallen into the mud decades ago. Going through this exercise, I'm starting to think Southern Pines is that mud-covered gold statue... just needs some of the bermuda turf wiped off so we can see all the gold shine through like it already does at Mid Pines and Pine Needles.