[Wayne_Kozun]

Rather than release the entire top 100 at once they are releasing this in dribs and drabs, starting with 100-91.  Four of these are Stanley Thompson courses:


100 Beaconsfield
99 Kawartha
98 Wildstone
97 Bear Mountain - Mountain Course
96 Seguin Valley
95 Burlington
94 Priddis Greens
93 Le Manoir Richelieu
92 Cataraqui
91 Wildfire


https://scoregolf.com/video/top-100-2020-100-91/

[Tom_Doak]

If Cataraqui and Kawartha were really only the ninety-somethingest best courses in the country, golf in Canada would be better than it is 😃

[Wayne_Kozun]

That's very true Tom,  Cataraqui is typically rated in the 80s and 90s.  I think the reason for this is that these two courses are in smaller cities that many of the raters will not have played and will be unlikely to visit, despite the fact that they are within a two hour drive of Toronto.  On these Score rankings in Canada some of the "flashier" public/resort courses that more actively play the ratings game tend to do better in the ratings, at least in the short term when they are newer.  Examples of that would be some of the Muskoka courses like Taboo, Rocky Crest, and Deerhurst.


Courses like these two are often overlooked.  A third example is St. Thomas, another very good Stnaley Thompson course, although it often ranks higher.  Perhaps it gets more play as raters go to play ultra-exclusive Redtail (Donald Steele) which is nearby and also stick around to play St. Thomas.

[Jeff_Mingay]

If Cataraqui and Kawartha were really only the ninety-somethingest best courses in the country, golf in Canada would be better than it is 😃

Haha. True story.

[Peter Pallotta]

That's one thing the Golf Digest rankings have going for them: the flawed system and skewed results get weakened and diluted when there's 1000 raters instead of only 100 -- and when those raters are spread out over 30 major urban centres instead of just 3. Maybe Golf Digest should dramatically enhance its income-generating panel program and have 10000 raters rather than merely 1000-1500, thereby 'weakening' and 'diluting' the process so much that it actually makes it better!

[Wayne_Kozun]

81-90 were posted today:


No 90
CAMELOT
Cumberland, Ont.THOMAS MCBROOM, 1991
7.5282 / 2018 Rank: 74


No 89
COPPER POINT – POINT (PUBLIC)
Windermere, B.C.GARY BROWNING, 2004
7.5318 / 2018 Rank: 85


No 88
CREDIT VALLEY
Mississauga, Ont.S. THOMPSON/
C.E. ROBINSON, 1930 (GRAHAM COOKE)
7.5339 / 2018 Rank: 97


No 87
POINT GREY
Vancouver, B.C.DAVID AYTON, JR., 1924
(RILEY JOHNS)
7.5538 / 2018 Rank: 91


No 86
TABOO RESORT
Gravenhurst, Ont.RON GARL, 2002
7.5612 / 2018 Rank: 82


No 85
EAGLE CREEK
Dunrobin, Ont.KEN VENTURI, 1990
7.5645 / 2018 Rank: 93


No 84
WOLF CREEK – OLD (PUBLIC)
Ponoka, Alta.ROD WHITMAN, 1984
7.5693 / 2018 Rank: 83


No 83
LAVAL-SUR-LE-LAC – GREEN
Laval, Que.WILLIE PARK, JR., 1929
(IAN ANDREW)
7.5709 / 2018 Rank: 70


No 82
BRANTFORD G&CC
Brantford, Ont.NICOL THOMPSON, 1919
(C.E. ROBINSON)
7.5736 / 2018 Rank: 79


No 81
ST. ANDREW'S EAST
Stouffville, Ont.
RENE MUYLAERT, 1989
7.5805 / 2018 Rank: NR

[Mike Baillie]

The same day that the 81 to 90 list comes out so does the Feature Interview about Course Rankings by J Cummings.  He has Banff in his World Top 10.  The 2018 Score ranking had Banff 8th in Canada!  In general terms without referencing the lists back to 1988, Banff has rarely if ever cracked the top five and at times outside the top 20 in a country with typically 2-4 in the World Top 100.  Different strokes for different folks.  Gets people talking I suppose.

Similar to Tom's and Wayne's comments about Cataraqui, I was surprised to see Brantford down at 82. Pleased to see St Andrew's East at 81 where I have been a member since day 1 for over 30 years.  Things like:
- acquiring add'l land to replace 3 weaker holes with 3 of the better ones also enabling the improvement of 2 more
- Ian Andrew's long range plan from 2005 to 2014
- Doug Carrick's two new greens and more from 175 yards in on one of them from 2015 to 2018
- tree removal
- the ongoing rectification of the one valid Confidential Guide critique 'lots of extraneous bunkers' being removed

have certainly helped.  That isn't the half of it though.  It goes to the rating process and panel which when I get more facts will be a separate post.

Having said all that as much as I enjoy St Andrew's East, I'm sure most of us on here would rank both Cataraqui and Brantford better than SAE .  Of course the rankings have and will have strange choices like often 3 Mount Tremblant courses and others.

The perspective I have had about St Andrew's East is that there are plenty of better courses but not many better places to play.  No tee times, less than 18,000 rounds a year (perhaps not this COVID year!) and a routing better than the Confidential Guide comment about Westmount being able to 'play a few holes late in the day' - members can play 3, 4, 5 or 6 holes in sequence from and returning to the clubhouse late in the day.  Also makes a no tee time model work at busy times.

Good to see the course that many golfers even in Greater Toronto don't even know get some well deserved news.
 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Nos 71-80 including some interesting courses:

• A whole lot of Nicklaus courses (three)
• Some Ian Andrew restorations
• My home club, Scarboro, at 73 which is the only Tillinghast course remaining in Canada.  Gil Hanse assisted Ian Andrew in a restoration about a decade ago.  Unfortunately the signature hole, the 4th, is the one hole which was never completed as per their plan.
• Travis' Lookout Point at 78.  I haven't played here but those who have rave about it.
• Glen Abbey at 76 - this course used to be in the top 25 and has fallen precipitously.  There is a fight to turn the course into homes so it may be NLE in a few years.
• Mt Lorette at Kananaskis - I am interested that this course is even on the list.  I wonder how many people have rated the new course as this course, and its sister course, were destroyed in a flood in 2013 and just reponed in 2018.
• Copper Creek is at 79.  I don't think it is in the top 79 in the Greater Toronto Area, nevermind Canada.  There are also rumours that nine holes of this course will be turned into housing.  Not a big loss IMHO.
• Royal Ottawa which is listed as being by Bendelow and Willie Park Jr before being renovated by Graham Cooke.  I am not a fan of Cooke's work as his work at Highlands Links and Scarboro detracted from those courses.

No 80
KANANASKIS COUNTRY – MT. LORETTE (PUBLIC)
Kananaskis, Alta.ROBERT TRENT JONES, 1984
(GARY BROWNING)
7.5827 / 2018 Rank: 73


No 79
COPPER CREEK (PUBLIC)
Kleinburg, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 2002
7.5838 / 2018 Rank: 84


No 78
LOOKOUT POINT
Fonthill, Ont.WALTER J. TRAVIS, 1922
(IAN ANDREW)
7.5892 / 2018 Rank: 87


No 77
EAGLE RANCH (PUBLIC)
Invermere, B.C.BILL ROBINSON, 2000
7.5991 / 2018 Rank: NR


No 76
GLEN ABBEY (PUBLIC)
Oakville, Ont.JACK NICKLAUS, 1976
7.6007 / 2018 Rank: 67


No 75
RIVERSIDE
Saskatoon, Sask.BILL KINNEAR, 1912
(WAYNE CARLETON)
7.6058 / 2018 Rank: 90


No 74
ROYAL OTTAWA
Gatineau, Que.TOM BENDELOW/WILLIE PARK, JR., 1904
(GRAHAM COOKE)
7.6076 / 2018 Rank: 64


No 73
SCARBORO G&CC
Scarborough, Ont.A.W. TILLINGHAST, 1912
(IAN ANDREW/GIL HANSE)
7.6076 / 2018 Rank: 69


No 72
BEAR MOUNTAIN – VALLEY (PUBLIC)
Victoria, B.C.JACK AND STEVE NICKLAUS, 2008
7.6230 / 2018 Rank: 80


No 71
NICKLAUS NORTH (PUBLIC)
Whistler, B.C.
JACK NICKLAUS, 1995
7.6275 / 2018 Rank: 49

[Tyler Kearns]

Manitoba is going to get skunked again, hard to believe there exists 100 courses better than Elmhurst!!


Tyler

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Tyler - Has MB been shut out recently?  Isn't St. Charles often on the list?  How does Elmhurst compare to St. Charles?

[Mike Baillie]

Whether fair or not, it is difficult for Manitoba to get represented.  How many SCORE panelists visit Winnipeg courses on a consistent basis? 

The panel was the 2nd point I wanted to make about St. Andrew's East the other day.  In 30 years, less than 10 panelists saw the course and further a large portion of the panel did not even know the course existed.  I know of 2 prior visits.  In 2019, 14 panelists visited and surprise / surprise SAE on the list this week.  Since Thursday several other panelists have called the Head Pro or General Manager expressing interest to play.

Regarding the list released today both Lookout Point and Scarboro seem under rated to me.  In the 50s or 60s would seem reasonable given some of the selections likely to come.

[Matt Bosela]

Just a note that if anyone is interested in visiting Lookout, just reach out to me and I'd be happy to host you.  It's a blast to play but as a member, I'm perhaps a bit biased.  Good to see that it's improved in the rankings a bit this year...

[Steve Lang]

The same day that the 81 to 90 list comes out so does the Feature Interview about Course Rankings by J Cummings.  He has Banff in his World Top 10.  The 2018 Score ranking had Banff 8th in Canada!  In general terms without referencing the lists back to 1988, Banff has rarely if ever cracked the top five and at times outside the top 20 in a country with typically 2-4 in the World Top 100.  Different strokes for different folks.  Gets people talking I suppose.

I believe Jon noted "Banff original routing"..  we got to go off from the elevated Hotel tee with one of Rick H's hickory sticks, and I believe I still have the Adam Clayman autograph Rawlings Balata used there..   it was different

[Tyler Kearns]

@Tyler - Has MB been shut out recently?  Isn't St. Charles often on the list?  How does Elmhurst compare to St. Charles?

Wayne,


No Manitoba courses made the 2018 list, but in the past St. Charles, Pine Ridge and maybe Elmhurst have been on the list.  Architecturally, Elmhurst and St. Charles are on fairly equal footing, however, Elmhurst resides on rolling, sandy property which elevates it above St. Charles in my opinion.  For a city with 45 holes by Ross, 36 by Thompson and 9 by MacKenzie, it is often overlooked (not to mentioned, it formerly had 36 holes by Park which unfortunately no longer exist).


Tyler

[Tyler Kearns]

Whether fair or not, it is difficult for Manitoba to get represented.  How many SCORE panelists visit Winnipeg courses on a consistent basis? 

The panel was the 2nd point I wanted to make about St. Andrew's East the other day.  In 30 years, less than 10 panelists saw the course and further a large portion of the panel did not even know the course existed.  I know of 2 prior visits.  In 2019, 14 panelists visited and surprise / surprise SAE on the list this week.  Since Thursday several other panelists have called the Head Pro or General Manager expressing interest to play.

Regarding the list released today both Lookout Point and Scarboro seem under rated to me.  In the 50s or 60s would seem reasonable given some of the selections likely to come.

Mike,


I took a look at the list of Score Golf panelists and noted 3 of them are current Winnipeg residents, out of a total of approx. 100 panelists. I certainly understand we are in "flyover" country, but those panelists are missing out on some good golf.


Tyler

[Mike Baillie]

Tyler, while I have only played Pine Ridge (Ross)3 times and Quarry Oaks once, that is enough for me to agree with you there is good golf in Winnipeg.  Despite that it is practically difficult get Winnipeg represented given SCORE 100 rules and when so only one course.


A reasonable chance some of the 3 locals have a Winnipeg course on their ballot unless their affiliation precludes it.  The problem is to get CONSIDERED for the Score Top 100, 10 panelists need to have had a given course on their ballot sometime in the last 7 years.  Hard to imagine how that can happen consistently.


To add perspective, Volume 3 of the Confidential Guide has 1 course from Saskatchewan, none from Manitoba and close to 40 from Ontario.

[Matthew MacKay]

I'll try to summarize my thoughts on some topics within the thread...


-Kawartha and Cat certainly way underrated in that bottom 10
-I have a huge appreciation for Wolf Creek-Old and think it should be higher on the list
-I have played Scarboro and Lookout dozens of times, and they both get better with subsequent plays. Both are woefully underappreciated.
-Played St Andrews East twice in the last two years and I'm ok with it being considered amongst a very long list of good courses in the country.
-The Manitoba courses mentioned are all worthy of top 100 consideration, but I don't believe any of them are egregious omissions (although I haven't seen the recent work that has been done to the courses)

[Ronald Montesano]

Lookout Point at #78 is akin to Cataraqui and Kawartha ...


Since Cherry Hill is not yet listed, and is not as strong a course as Lookout, it makes me wonder whether Cherry Hill will make the top 100 at all, or if the panel really does understand Walter J. Travis. Alas...

[Matthew MacKay]

Cherry Hill will be on the list. It has welcomed raters and has gained the accolades it deserves, imo.


Believe it or not, Lookout has its fair share of detractors who feel it is too 'quirky'.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Cherry Hill was #44 in 2018 so it should be farther up the list.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Numbers 61-70

• Rosedale is on the list - they only have Donald Ross listed but I wonder how much Ross is left at Rosedale?  I am biased but I think that Scarboro is a better course than Rosedale - but Rosedale is probably the most exclusive club in the country that is home to lots of bank CEOs, etc.
• Two entries for Rod Whitman, including the Algonquin in NB.  Apparently that was a Ross as well.  It was redone by McBroom about 15-20 years ago and then redone by Whitman over the last few years.
• Maple Downs is at 64 - this has been Lorne Rubenstein's home course for many years.  This seems a bit high to me but I haven't played it. 
• More love for Nicklaus with Northern Bear outside of Edmonton.  Even when it just comes to considering Nicklaus' courses - is this better than Glen Abbey?
• The Ridge at Manitou which was in danger of closing is at 62.  One of the most scenic closing holes in the country.  Geddy Lee of Rush has a cottage nearby and is rumoured to be a member.
• Osprey Valley has been renamed TPC Toronto.  This is one of very few 54 hole facilities in Canada.  The original Heathlands course by Carrick has dropped down 12 spots to 63.  I wonder if the other two courses from this facility make the list?

No 70
ROSEDALE
Toronto, Ont.DONALD ROSS, 1919
7.6290 / 2018 Rank: 76


No 69
THE ALGONQUIN (PUBLIC)
St. Andrews-by-the-Sea, N.B.DONALD ROSS, 1927
(ROD WHITMAN/KEITH CUTTEN)
7.6336 / 2018 Rank: NR


No 68
LE MAITRE (RESORT)
Mont Tremblant, Que.F. COUPLES/G. COOKE/
D. HUXHAM, 2001
7.6450 / 2018 Rank: 65


No 67
DEER RIDGE
Kitchener, Ont.THOMAS MCBROOM, 1991
7.6461 / 2018 Rank: 63


No 66
WOLF CREEK – LINKS (PUBLIC)
Ponoka, Alta.ROD WHITMAN, 1996/2010
7.6471 / 2018 Rank: 68


No 65
PREDATOR RIDGE – PREDATOR (PUBLIC)
Vernon, B.C.LES FURBER, 1991
7.6481 / 2018 Rank: 59


No 64
MAPLE DOWNS
Maple, Ont.WILLIAM F. MITCHELL, 1954
(IAN ANDREW)
7.6579 / 2018 Rank: 62


No 63
TPC TORONTO AT OSPREY VALLEY – HEATHLANDS (PUBLIC)
Caledon, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 1992
7.6657 / 2018 Rank: 51


No 62
THE RIDGE AT MANITOU (PUBLIC)
McKellar, Ont.THOMAS MCBROOM, 2004
7.6732 / 2018 Rank: 57


No 61
NORTHERN BEAR (PUBLIC)
Sherwood Park, Alta.JACK NICKLAUS, 2002
7.6850 / 2018 Rank: 75

[Matthew MacKay]

Wayne, I'd agree re Rosedale<Scarboro but I do really like Rosedale, despite the renovation work that's taken place in dribs and drabs over the years.


The recent work Ian Andrew did at Maple Downs is excellent. Absolutely worthy of that position.


I've never been overly enamoured with Ridge at Manitou. Par 3's are mostly very similar and it always plays soft. RT might think I'm crazy, but I think Seguin Valley down the road is the more compelling golf course.


For sure the other TPC Osprey courses will be on the list. I still think Heathlands is the best of the three and is placed about right on  the list.

[Mark Saltzman]

Wayne, I'd agree re Rosedale<Scarboro but I do really like Rosedale, despite the renovation work that's taken place in dribs and drabs over the years.


The recent work Ian Andrew did at Maple Downs is excellent. Absolutely worthy of that position.


I've never been overly enamoured with Ridge at Manitou. Par 3's are mostly very similar and it always plays soft. RT might think I'm crazy, but I think Seguin Valley down the road is the more compelling golf course.


For sure the other TPC Osprey courses will be on the list. I still think Heathlands is the best of the three and is placed about right on  the list.

Well, I guess all I have left to write is ‘agreed’.

[Wayne_Kozun]

For sure the other TPC Osprey courses will be on the list. I still think Heathlands is the best of the three and is placed about right on  the list.

I agree that Heathlands is the best of the three, but if the other two are on the list then they will be ranked too highly.  FYI in 2018 Hoot was 37, Heathlands was 51 and North was 57. 


How do you guys feel about Summit vs Rosedale and Scarboro?  Strangely enough, I haven't played Summit, but from what I have heard in belongs in roughly the same grouping.

[Mike Baillie]

Like others, Heathland the best of the 3 Osprey based on one play each.  Hard to imagine both Hoot and North being in the top 60, let's see perhaps one gets left out.


Summit / Scarboro / Rosedale:
Depends what an individual likes.  Based on a few plays of the first two and only one at Rosedale several years ago I would go with Summit best followed by the other two quite close.  Having said that Summit has done quite well the last few cycles.  I don't see Summit in the 30s with Scarboro / Rosedale / Lookout in the 70s,  Brantford in the 80s and Cataraqui in the 90s.  A range from the 40s to 60s/70s would be better.


Usually when SCORE gets into the top 30 the selections make more sense. Further back some strange relative rankings.

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