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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh
« on: June 27, 2020, 09:11:01 AM »
An interesting man, Charles Talbot, 1st Duke of Shrewsbury, was one of the Immortal Seven which invited William Prince of Orange to depose James II during the Glorious Revolution of 1688.  Throughout his career Talbot would choose a creative balancing act between Monarchs and competing factions…a very common and common sense approach to politics in the 17th century. The Duke, however, was adamant that he wanted a baroque Italian style villa in the Oxfordshire Cotswolds.  He found his land in a valley between Enstone and Heythrop near the market town of Chipping Norton and engaged one of the few English architects at the time capable of such a commission, Thomas Archer.   Unfortunately, works weren’t completed before Talbot’s death in 1718. The house has gone through many iterations, perhaps none more so when the Jesuits owned the property as college for philosophical and theological studies from 1926 to 1970. Jesuit additions to the property include the ironstone wings.  Some of the less salubrious buildings were torn down when the property became a resort which opened in 2010. Although the resort additions to the grounds are dubious at best.
 
The formal and informal gardens of Heythrop Park are somewhat famous in architecture circles. It is thought Heythrop Park is an early example of the more natural garden style embraced by the likes of Capability Brown and Humphry Repton.  By the time the property was acquired from NatWest in 1999 by Firoz Kassam, the gardens were in a poor state.  Entire fields were cleared of trees, replacement trees weren’t planted and wrong species were permitted to invade.  Mackenzie & Ebert, both designers who worked under Donald Steel for many years, had to restore some of the garden and design the new course within the framework of park preservation/restoration.  These restraints make for some awkward moments during the round, but planning permission wouldn’t have been granted without a park restoration element to the project.  Despite this marriage of interests, alarmingly, a large number of replacement trees have been planted hard on fairways.  These trees will threaten to bury the course under foliage if an extremely efficient tree management scheme isn’t adopted sooner rather than later.

The opening hole is somewhat constrained by large specimen trees, however the raised green (nearly all the greens are either raised or on high ground) hints at good things to come.  The short 2nd is a fairly straight-forward hole.  It is on the longish par 4 third that the course becomes quite interesting.  Left bunkers protect a good line of approach which can utilize the banked right side of the fairway near the green.


Coming back on the third, the three shot 4th runs the length of a wall down the right.  Somewhat surprisingly, a fair amount of shaping was done to give pause to golfers thinking about going for the green in two. Generally speaking, Heythrop's bunkers are very well placed without a sense of obtrusiveness.  I spose it depends on one's PoV if this is a good approach on a parkland course; I tend to think it is.




It seems as though much of modern architecture features sharp doglegs...a design concept which I think is very difficult to do well.  Unfortunately, Heythrop's acute leggers are not the strength of the design.  The 5th, a nearly 90 degree right dogleg is a case in point.  Water must be carried to achieve the optimal landing zone.  Due to the severe grade of the hill, and trees on the right, laying up in the rough is not a very good option.  I wonder if it isn't better to have a very back tee and a very forward tee on this hole?




A highly entertaining hole, the 6th, although a par 4, is reachable for the perfectly executed drive.  I am unsure about the trees online with the green.  I dislike breaking up views to greens this way, but trees do serve to bring the right bunker into play and protect the 24 carat line of approach.


There is a sweet spot between the trees and the admirably placed bunker.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 10:45:56 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-6
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2020, 10:35:55 AM »
Well done Sean, I'm liking the look of this course already. Even the rubbish redo of the bunkers isn't spoiling it (apologies for mentioning bunker design). Carry on.


Niall

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-6
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2020, 10:58:13 AM »
In case anyone wants to see how Talbot's manor house turned out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heythrop_Park

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-6
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2020, 04:23:01 PM »
I was a member at Heythrop for a couple of years when my friend David Griffin was GM. It is a long, hard walk, which is probably the worst thing about it. But IMO Tom did a very good job with the course; there are several really good holes. Sadly Mr Kassam is rather difficult, which I don't think helps the place.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-6
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2020, 05:20:44 PM »
So it wasn't quite clear ftom the intro - is this an original design from 1999, or a renovation of an older course?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-6
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2020, 06:29:29 PM »
So it wasn't quite clear ftom the intro - is this an original design from 1999, or a renovation of an older course?

It's an original 2010 design.

Heythrop Tour Cont

We get our first of a handful of awkward walks for the 7th.  Heythrop is in that no man's land of being walkable (just), but given the hilly nature of the site, the walk can be unpleasant at times.  If our visit is any indication, most people ride carts. The hole is of a very similar length to 1 and 3, that is about 400 yards.  There is a large dip in the fairway which if carried makes for a much easier hole.  The sunken green is somewhat unattractively angled right behind bunkers.
 

Another hard dogleg right and sharply uphill for the approach, the 8th is not a hole which made a positive impression.  The short 9th, though quite tight to a hazard, is a hole I do like.  The trees on the left is one of many examples where a hole will be spoiled once the they reach maturity.




Heading toward the hotel, the 10th works right and features a blind Simpson-like dip short right of the green.  The extremely odd long 11th is one of two holes which were dictated by views from the hotel.  I believe the mandate was that it shouldn't be obvious there is a golf hole when looking down the grass avenue toward the pond well below. Below is a photo behind the pond looking back to the hotel some 700 yards away up the hill.


A harsh downhill, legger left tee shot was created to hide the tee from the hotel.  I am not sure much could be done to hide the golfers  8) .  It is extremely easy to run out of room down the right.  Consequently, many will choose to lay up then be forced to lay up again short of the pond.  A long and perfectly placed drive earns the golfer this unpromising view of the green.  Yes, the green is left of the water to remain hidden from the hotel.  This hole is a clear case of colliding interests between golf and garden.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 02:49:09 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2020, 10:18:09 AM »
There was a 9-hole course during the time it was a training centre for the Nat West bank. That's when i first saw it. The course occupied the land to the west of the house where holes 1 and 13 to 18 are now. If you toggle the timeline tool on Google Earth you can see the original layout.


The entire layout today is a Tom Mackenzie original work, although I believe the routing for planning was done by Simon Gidman. We pitched for the job back in 2006, but couldn't agree a fee package with Mr. Kassam.


I don't often disagree with Sean, but i think he's missed the mark with his assessment of the new tree planting. Again, if you toggle the Google Earth timeline you can see the full extent of the concept that the new planting follows and just how much work was involved with reinstating the original 18th century scheme which was lost during the 20th century. It's not a case of the trees being planted too close to the fairways, but rather the fairways being cut too close to the trees. The golf course is part of a much bigger plan and has to respect the wider vision. I think it does it rather well and I'm not as perturbed as Sean was by the occasional tree interfering with the line of play (we played together) and doubt I will be as they continue to grow.


It is a generally sparse but well planned formal landscape and a fascinating aside to the round of golf. This was my fourth game at Heythrop and I think it's a lot of fun. Not bad either for a £30 summer green fee.


It is an awfully long walk. I measured it off on Google Earth and we topped 9,000 metres of hilly walking on a warm day. Our walking round took close to 4.5 hours and a good 45 minutes or more of that was on the transit routes. Between 12 and 13 is a good 350 metres.


If Adam chimes in again he can boast about driving the par 4 6th hole with one of the most majestic drawn tee shots I've ever seen. Adam, am I right in thinking that at the time they were offering free membership to anyone who did what you did? There was some reason why you couldn't claim it though.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2020, 10:27:36 AM »
Was a fun day that. The day that the legend of Dr Rob, playing with whom always fixes my golf game, was born. Sadly it didn't work last year in Fife...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2020, 10:31:14 AM »
Well I didn't actually play in Fife last year, which is possibly why the magic was blunted. However, if you want to test the theory anew, the sticks are back in play now.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2020, 10:39:05 AM »
Something to bear in mind as Sean's tour continues is that Heythrop held an event on the European Challenge Tour in 2016. It tops out at just over 7,000 yards from the back tees.  The young Belgian Thomas Detry won the event with a score of 259 (-29)!! This included a 60 in the 1st round. He lapped the rest of the field by 12 shots! It really isn't THAT easy a golf course.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2020, 11:12:25 AM »
Oh, I think I meant at Westward Ho! in autumn 2018...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Paul Dolton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2020, 02:09:01 AM »
I did contemplate joining a couple of years ago as it's near to me.
A beautiful peaceful location and no traffic problems getting there.
Sean is there any tee options on the 8th ? The only one I've seen was always struggling with over use and trees blocking out the sunlight.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 04:11:20 AM by Paul Dolton »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2020, 07:48:53 AM »
Thanks for doing this tour. There are very few new designs attributable to M&E (post-Steele), so it's interesting to see one.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2020, 08:00:00 AM »
I always liked the look of this course as there is very little fairway shaping which results in a more natural parkland feel.


Like John, I don’t know too many M&E original designs. I get the feeling that Tom is a little more playful than Martin with his design work.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2020, 08:10:56 AM »
I always liked the look of this course as there is very little fairway shaping which results in a more natural parkland feel.



I think none at all. The park at Heythrop is of very high importance; it is believed that it is where the naturalistic 'English style' of landscape, which reached its apogee with Brown and Repton, first began to appear. It was in a very bad state before the golf course came along; the only reason the course was permitted in such an important location was on condition that much of the original planting was replaced, and I believe the only earthmoving was for greens and tees, at least on the holes within the old park.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2020, 09:07:22 AM »
There certainly isn't any fairway featuring, beyond bunker works, but the approach shaping on a few holes (especially the 4th) is quite extensive beyond the immediate green surrounds. The 18th green is also shaped out into the approach, though without bunkering. I would have thought a more geometric green might have suited the 18th better, which you might want to think about when Sean's tour concludes.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Paul Dolton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2020, 10:14:17 AM »
I remember playing the original 9 hole course a long time ago.
It was on the left as you got to the main building.
Always thought it was a shame that the clubhouse or at least part of it couldn't of been incorporated in the original building.
The membership fee is very competitive and for a little extra there is a gym and swimming pool available.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2020, 10:22:57 AM »
I like the bunkering, it looks much better than I was expecting.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2020, 02:54:08 PM »
Adrian


What I like about the bunkering;


I quite like that at least on some of the bunkering the ball gathers into them.
I also quite like the bunkers on the high side of the fairways where you would naturally tend to want to play your shot to.


What I don't like about the bunkering;


The bunkering appears to be all very elliptical. A bit of variety would have been good. Throw in a cape somewhere maybe ?
The grass face of the bunkers, I don't like that. I see it with a lot restoration jobs with the grass sod draped down the face rather than looking like chunks have been taken out of the ground. 2D rather than 3D.


Now, given what Adam and Robin have been saying about the nature of the Park and the probable constraints Tom MacKenzie was under in terms of shaping I'm maybe being a little harsh on him but I personally prefer to see the bunker face rather than have it camouflaged or obscured by grass. No matter what Tom Simpson said about bunkers being lighthouses and all that, nothing wrong in spelling out wrong with spelling out the challenge. I do agree however that the low lying nature of them suits the landscape.


Now I've got a very large book to read. See you all tomorrow.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-11
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2020, 06:26:20 AM »
Doc

I understand your PoV, but I am discussing a golf course, not a park.  It seems to me that if the two need(ed) each other to save the park, it should be a partnership which is close to 50-50. To me this means the course should get a bit more respect as a course rather than as tolerated annoyance. 

Niall

I like grass face bunkers, especially the grass roll-over type on parkland courses.  The Heythrop Park examples are a bit unusual.  Regardless of the aesthetics, their placement is very good even if there could be more bold centreline bunkers. 

Hethrop Park Tour Cont

A long walk takes us to the odd 12th with a huge tree in the middle of the fairway.  The fairway is not nearly wide enough for such a feature and serves to aid the big hitters who can fly the tree.  There is room out right which isn't used that would make for an interesting alternative to playing at the tree.


The raised green is a tough target, but there is space for a kick up.


Another tortuous walk is on to play the uncommon 13th. The green is benched between a narrow water course and the rear hill. The visual effect of tee tiers and tiered shaping for the green complex is not quite right, but the hole plays well.




We didn't play the high white tee for the 14th as the yellow tee is handy from the previous green.  It is slightly awkward hitting uphill, but this tee does prohibit a percentage of bombers from taking it over the left trees.  Additionally, a drive hit too straight and long could easily result in a blocked second shot.

From above the hole, it is easier to see the arching dogleg design. 


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 02:51:38 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-14
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2020, 07:15:55 AM »
Sean


I do enjoy a good debate!


With specific reference to the new tree planting which forms the basis of the landscape restoration project and which most raised your ire. The planting locations are fixed. They will have endeavored to replicate the exact same positions of the original planting plan. I think it is great that the original landscape scheme has been reborn. It adds considerably to the charm of the park and will continue to improve as the avenues and groves mature.


Tom Mackenzie has done a fine job of weaving the course through the linear and formal planting scheme. It doesn't bother me at all and I doubt anybody else refers to the course as a "tolerated annoyance". It is a fascinating and revealing meander through an historic English parkland and a good test of golf to boot. Other than the bizarre (but understandable) 11th hole, I can't see there has been a whole lot of compromise to the golf course layout created by the new planting. Some of the new trees will increase their impact on the course as they grow (Hole 10 for example), but not to an extent that will lessen the experience. I suspect you don't agree and that's fine.


It's OK to have a narrow focus on the golf course and your analytical reviews are of tremendous value to all of us who read them keenly. In this instance, there is a much wider design in play. The golf course is an important part of this grand restoration project and I think the design team has struck an acceptable balance between the function and aesthetic.


On a side note, you are right about the huge oak tree in the middle of the 12th hole. There is space to the right of it for a fairway. Possibly, there would have been a concern about the safety of the approach into that green site in relation to the property to the right of the green. There must be a good reason why they aimed straight at the tree. I'll ask Tom M and report back.  Do notice the small tree to the right of it, which is planted specifically as a long-term replacement. Someday, they will fell the big oak and this fairway will open right up and be flanked by a maturing oak. They have done this elsewhere on the course to safeguard the longevity of the mature specimen trees.


Looking forward to the rest of the review. Your photos are lovely by the way. I don't know how you always manage to keep us out of shot.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh 1-14
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 10:45:44 AM »
Doc

Trying to butter me up eh?  Sometimes golfers can't be avoided or they help the shot.  Often times, as I crop pix anyway, you buggers end up on the edit room floor  ;D

If the original tree scheme is really a 100% restoration rather than an approximation, then I can go along with trees mucking up the course.  That doesn't mean I am happy about the trees, just that I accept the over-riding principle  8)

Heythrop Park Tour Cont.


The short 15th caught me off guard in two respects.  First, I didn't realize there was such a sharp drop-off on the left. Second, I didn't know the kick in on the right was cut-off by dips.  This photo was taken in front of the tees.


The final three holes don't leave a good feeling about the round.  As a bunch they are rather mundane tree lined holes.  The 16th is narrow due to the sloping right terrain and large tree blocking the second shot.


The penultimate hole isn't up to much.  Architecturally, the same is true of the three-shot home hole, although the shallow and wide green is engaging.  Similar to the 11th, the hole is completely subserviant to the park and hotel.  No bunkers and deviation of straight tree plantings.  The hole remains attractive for obvious reasons.






Heythrop Park is quite an unusual design and deserves more attention as a restoration project in which golf can be a positive partner.  There are many good holes such as 3, 6, 9, 13 & 15.  However, I fear the clash between course and park and the rough walk collude to the detriment of the golf.  Be that as it may, if one is in the neighbourhood Heythrop Park is worth stopping for a game, especially as the greenfee is very reasonable.   2020

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 06:39:02 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2020, 12:09:31 PM »
Thanks for the photo-tour Sean, splendid as ever. Interesting debate with other posters too. Just a few minutes up the road is Tadmarton Heath. Two very different sides to the golfing coin but not necessarily in a bad way.
atb

 

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2020, 04:25:06 AM »
Thanks so much for the tour Sean. I have stayed in the Heythrop hotel for work conferences several times, and never taken advantage of the even cheaper green fee offered for hotel guests, preferring to drive on to Tadmarton (of which I am very fond) if I fancied a game at the end of official proceedings. If such things as work conferences or indeed hotel stays ever happen again, I should clearly give Heythrop a go. Incidentally Heythrop is at the other, Cotswold end of Oxfordshire to Huntercombe, which offers (not that I am biased) much the best golf in the county and is about an hour's drive away.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HEYTHROP PARK: Well Nigh
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2020, 05:36:19 AM »
Richard

You are welcome.  I too would rather play Huntercombe or Taddy over Heythrop.  But if you are in the area its worth while seeing Heythrop once.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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