Perfect land for golf that remains undeveloped?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

The Mornington Peninsula
The Monterrey Peninsula
The Oregon Coast
Sand Hills of North Carolina
Northern Michigan
UK and Ireland Coast
Sand Hills of the Great Plains
Etc.
Etc.


We know that great golf clusters around great land, and there are some particular standouts listed above. My question is, are there any significant geographical areas that are PERFECT for golf that remain undeveloped for golf?


My question stems from an Instagram photo of somewhere in Western Australia.  https://www.instagram.com/thatmallardguy/?hl=en 2nd set of photos from the top.


Not sure if it's great land, but it's certainly sandy looking and undeveloped.

[Kalen Braley]

North of San Francisco up Hwy 1, a few epic spots, but no way in hell they will ever get developed...


P.S.  I've also thought a few great courses could be located in the Palouse region of Eastern Washington.

[Tim_Weiman]

Inch Peninsula, Dingle Bay, Ireland


But will probably never get permitted. Arthur Spring tried for about 20 years.


I remember walking it with Rupert O’Neal before Ballyneal was built. After seeing Inch, Rupert was afraid he didn’t have a good enough property to build Ballyneal.

[Tom_Doak]

If you mean "perfect" except for climate, permitting issues, and potential customers, there are lots of those.  But with even 2 out of 3 in its favor?  Not many.


Years ago there was a piece in the Australian gokf architects' annual publication about a project in northern China that looked every bit as good as Sand Hills.  But it would have been a very short season and it was very remote . . . and of course today you can't get permits to build a golf course in China at all.


So you're saying there's a chance . . .

[Edward Glidewell]

I'm sure there's quite a lot in parts of Africa and Asia. Less sure about South America, although I imagine there are at least some areas there as well.


Doesn't seem like any of those places will be developed anytime soon, though.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Obviously Tom B is not referring to undeveloped links land in GB&I (of which there is a lot).


All the same, in Ireland there is one particularly appealing dune system that works directly adjacent to the local village. First tee & 18th green would be in the town TOC style. It’s not remote (in the true sense) and would open up a corner of Ireland that is less visited by golf tourists. Zero chance in getting the permit of course.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Obviously Tom B is not referring to undeveloped links land in GB&I (of which there is a lot).


All the same, in Ireland there is one particularly appealing dune system that works directly adjacent to the local village. First tee & 18th green would be in the town TOC style. It’s not remote (in the true sense) and would open up a corner of Ireland that is less visited by golf tourists. Zero chance in getting the permit of course.

Interesting. What's the general hold up in UK and Ireland in terms of permitting for new seaside courses? Environmentalism? Local politics? NIMBYism? Do the dunes you speak of get a lot of recreational traffic or something?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Obviously Tom B is not referring to undeveloped links land in GB&I (of which there is a lot).


All the same, in Ireland there is one particularly appealing dune system that works directly adjacent to the local village. First tee & 18th green would be in the town TOC style. It’s not remote (in the true sense) and would open up a corner of Ireland that is less visited by golf tourists. Zero chance in getting the permit of course.

Interesting. What's the general hold up in UK and Ireland in terms of permitting for new seaside courses? Environmentalism? Local politics? NIMBYism? Do the dunes you speak of get a lot of recreational traffic or something?

Environmental, Tom. Almost all undeveloped links land is protected; in the UK by British legislation; in Ireland by European legislation which is even harder.


In Ireland, environmental groups are empowered by the law and generally take a no negotiation stance. In practice this often means that money is needed to progress planning applications with backup report after backup report. It can be frustrating for small clubs without the means, especially those who have low intrusion, minimalist plans that often help rather than hinder the dune environment.

[Thomas Dai]

There are quite a few, numerous maybe, uninspiring courses built in previous decades on rather nice sites.
Isn’t there more mileage in upgrading and improving these rather than spending time and resources chasing new projects that will probably never off the ground?
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are quite a few, numerous maybe, uninspiring courses built in previous decades on rather nice sites.
Isn’t there more mileage in upgrading and improving these rather than spending time and resources chasing new projects that will probably never off the ground?
Atb

I agree with you in many ways... yet on the other side of the coin, who gets to decide these courses are uninspired? We all hold different views and to quote Adrian’s consistent mantra, just because 1,500 GCA nerds have a certain way of looking at golf courses, doesn’t mean the rest of the world does.


I might have a different design style & ethos to Pat Ruddy (for instance) but it doesn’t mean that I want to go in and obliterate his work, especially his original designs. I wouldn’t touch The European if I was begged. It is his and is all the better - and more original - for it.


All that said, I do think much of the detailing on some great sites over the last 50 years has a lot to be desired. Hackett’s courses (for instance) have very little inspiration in the detail. Often because the courses were built by locals without an enormous amount of oversight.


So we get back to the difficult position of  “when is it ok to renovate a links course?” I think it just comes down to an instinctive respect for the course and the original architect. Some people just don’t have enough respect...


Anyway, off topic... in general, I think you are correct. It’s a much easier gig than building new. We don’t really need new. Good to dream though.

[Tom_Doak]

So we get back to the difficult position of  “when is it ok to renovate a links course?” I think it just comes down to an instinctive respect for the course and the original architect. Some people just don’t have enough respect...

But haven't most of them been renovated four or five times by now?

[Tom_Doak]

There are quite a few, numerous maybe, uninspiring courses built in previous decades on rather nice sites.
Isn’t there more mileage in upgrading and improving these rather than spending time and resources chasing new projects that will probably never off the ground?

The question there is, who's the client?


The clubs in question usually think their course is just fine, and would never consider closing for a year to blow it up and make it better.


If they go under and have to sell, it could very well happen then, but it's not easy to reverse all the older work.  On our recent project for the National (Aus), I sorely underestimated how much work it would be to erase all the previous designer's shaping.  At least they hadn't planted trees between the fairways!


Developers like Mike Keiser and Mark Parsinen have no interest in these sorts of projects, though.  They're really in it more for the thrill of trying to create something special than for the $, and it just doesn't feel the same if the land has already been built on.

[Ally Mcintosh]

So we get back to the difficult position of  “when is it ok to renovate a links course?” I think it just comes down to an instinctive respect for the course and the original architect. Some people just don’t have enough respect...

But haven't most of them been renovated four or five times by now?

Some have already, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Then - I guess - it is fairer game. Some haven’t been touched, at least materially.


I always think we should leave some examples of every architect’s original work more or less untouched, certainly with regards to routing. If that work is already a mesh of different people’s ideas over a number of years, then you have to ask yourself what you’re holding on to. It can just come down to matters of degrees and not always rushing in.

[Don Mahaffey]

If you mean "perfect" except for climate, permitting issues, and potential customers, there are lots of those.  But with even 2 out of 3 in its favor?  Not many.


Years ago there was a piece in the Australian gokf architects' annual publication about a project in northern China that looked every bit as good as Sand Hills.  But it would have been a very short season and it was very remote . . . and of course today you can't get permits to build a golf course in China at all.


So you're saying there's a chance . . .

Would Bandon have met this criteria....hard to get to, hard against the coast?
Sand Hills? Climate, potential customers.


I get the conventional wisdom but it does feel like these success stories had a risk taking steward with a build it they will come attitude.


Cabot? Sand Valley? Do these have 2 of 3, or are they fed by the cadre of golfers created by Bandon - willing to travel and become the customers that overlook climate and remoteness. 


Maybe its a phase that will die out due to saturation. Be interesting to see if they all survive the pandemic as I can't imagine Cabot or Sand Valley are overrun by traveling golfers at the moment.


Probably should be it's own thread topic - But is the next newsworthy phase of golf creation actually going to be revitalization like what's going on in DC with Michael and Will Et al? A  local approach with a historical focus? I know that may not drive the MK & MPs of the world, and revitalizing the munis of the country may not be as sexy, but its no less appealing to me. Something special about bringing those talents often used in far off places for jet setters back to urban areas if benefactors can be found.


I know in Houston the city golf div manager while still hard at it at MPGC, is also working on reopening some city courses lost to Harvey and revitalizing another that has long been run down. They don't have the perfect sites, and whether the climate is good is arguable, but the season is long, the customers are there, and most importantly it seems the benefactors are too.

[Thomas Dai]

When I posted Reply 8 above I wasn’t so much getting at renovations or restorations or period closures, which is obviously one option, but more evolutionary ongoing short phase upgrade/improvement work, bit like off-season projects. The sort of thing that the regular greenkeeping team, even maybe a small team, could do in-house with appropriate advice and onsite help from an on-site architect/shaper. A couple of days/weeks one year, the same the next etc etc. At the simplest level this could even be just revisions to fairway mowing lines and angles.
There are also quite a few Clubs around the coast of GB&I with a pretty low spec second course that could significantly enhance their second course either as a once-off shut-n-finish job or slowly over a period of years.
Atb

[Gib_Papazian]

I came across The Inch Peninsula in Ireland some years ago . . . . . . stopped me dead in my tracks, and off I went to walk the property. If there is a better stretch of undeveloped land for golf, I would be shocked.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I came across The Inch Peninsula in Ireland some years ago . . . . . . stopped me dead in my tracks, and off I went to walk the property. If there is a better stretch of undeveloped land for golf, I would be shocked.

The proposed course at Inch actually received planning permission in 1997 (as the submission was started prior to 1994 EU Habitat regulations) but eventually got overturned.


Ever since, various architects and developers have discussed it off and on.


It is an obvious site (given its beautiful peninsula setting) but there is a lot more dune land around Ireland that I think could make for even better golf. All of it off-limits.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

If you mean "perfect" except for climate, permitting issues, and potential customers, there are lots of those.  But with even 2 out of 3 in its favor?  Not many.


Years ago there was a piece in the Australian gokf architects' annual publication about a project in northern China that looked every bit as good as Sand Hills.  But it would have been a very short season and it was very remote . . . and of course today you can't get permits to build a golf course in China at all.


So you're saying there's a chance . . .

Would Bandon have met this criteria....hard to get to, hard against the coast?
Sand Hills? Climate, potential customers.


I get the conventional wisdom but it does feel like these success stories had a risk taking steward with a build it they will come attitude.


Cabot? Sand Valley? Do these have 2 of 3, or are they fed by the cadre of golfers created by Bandon - willing to travel and become the customers that overlook climate and remoteness. 


Maybe its a phase that will die out due to saturation. Be interesting to see if they all survive the pandemic as I can't imagine Cabot or Sand Valley are overrun by traveling golfers at the moment.


Probably should be it's own thread topic - But is the next newsworthy phase of golf creation actually going to be revitalization like what's going on in DC with Michael and Will Et al? A  local approach with a historical focus? I know that may not drive the MK & MPs of the world, and revitalizing the munis of the country may not be as sexy, but its no less appealing to me. Something special about bringing those talents often used in far off places for jet setters back to urban areas if benefactors can be found.


I know in Houston the city golf div manager while still hard at it at MPGC, is also working on reopening some city courses lost to Harvey and revitalizing another that has long been run down. They don't have the perfect sites, and whether the climate is good is arguable, but the season is long, the customers are there, and most importantly it seems the benefactors are too.

Don I think this is spot on. When we think of what golf "needs" (and who are we to say but...) it's taking more crappy golf courses and making them decent to very good, vs. more destination resorts or destination privates. More Sweetens, more Audubon Parks, more of the King Collins type projects in New York and Mississippi, etc. Stuff that provides a quality experience at a low price.

[Don Mahaffey]

Golf "needs" variety from well designed local courses to play AND courses that are nice for get away. I don't want a golf world without a revitalized Memorial Park and Sand Valley, Bandon, or Cabot. 
I'm not about to name what architects should do what tho, as many are capable.

[Peter Pallotta]

Maybe in 50 years people will look upon some the very good 'tier two' courses being built these days -- on less than the perfect lands of Sand Hills or the Oregon coast -- and be able to 'see' what we ourselves don't see, ie that those sites too were perfect/ideal for golf.

[Tim Gavrich]

Not that Florida really needs more golf courses, but there's tons of undeveloped land up and down the big sand ridge and associated similar terrain that runs through the central and eastern parts of the state that unites the likes of:


West Palm Beach GC (NLE for now)
Seminole
Jupiter Hills
John's Island West
Streamsong
Mountain Lake
Lekarica (NLE)
Sugarloaf Mountain (NLE)


Plenty of sandy-soil land in those parts that doesn't currently have golf on it. But to Don's salient point, I'd rather see the courses on that terrain be maximized in their potential long before building new courses.


The city course for Ft. Pierce, FL, now called Indian Hills, is a perfect example: Herbert Strong originally, but was rerouted and made a shell of what it could be in the early 2000s. Still, the land drains like an absolute dream and has some wonderful movement. Oh well...

[Tim_Weiman]

I came across The Inch Peninsula in Ireland some years ago . . . . . . stopped me dead in my tracks, and off I went to walk the property. If there is a better stretch of undeveloped land for golf, I would be shocked.

Gib,


Arthur Spring was the first person to show me Inch. The place is amazing. Spring sketched out four courses on the property and had the benefit of a brother who was Prime Minister, but still after twenty years of trying he came up empty.


Inch takes a long time to walk around. There are golf holes everywhere. The only issue (after permitting) might be the embryonic dunes that could present construction issues.


Inch is a place to fantasize. Unlikely to ever be developed.

[Tim_Weiman]

If you mean "perfect" except for climate, permitting issues, and potential customers, there are lots of those.  But with even 2 out of 3 in its favor?  Not many.


Years ago there was a piece in the Australian gokf architects' annual publication about a project in northern China that looked every bit as good as Sand Hills.  But it would have been a very short season and it was very remote . . . and of course today you can't get permits to build a golf course in China at all.


So you're saying there's a chance . . .

Would Bandon have met this criteria....hard to get to, hard against the coast?
Sand Hills? Climate, potential customers.


I get the conventional wisdom but it does feel like these success stories had a risk taking steward with a build it they will come attitude.


Cabot? Sand Valley? Do these have 2 of 3, or are they fed by the cadre of golfers created by Bandon - willing to travel and become the customers that overlook climate and remoteness. 


Maybe its a phase that will die out due to saturation. Be interesting to see if they all survive the pandemic as I can't imagine Cabot or Sand Valley are overrun by traveling golfers at the moment.


Probably should be it's own thread topic - But is the next newsworthy phase of golf creation actually going to be revitalization like what's going on in DC with Michael and Will Et al? A  local approach with a historical focus? I know that may not drive the MK & MPs of the world, and revitalizing the munis of the country may not be as sexy, but its no less appealing to me. Something special about bringing those talents often used in far off places for jet setters back to urban areas if benefactors can be found.


I know in Houston the city golf div manager while still hard at it at MPGC, is also working on reopening some city courses lost to Harvey and revitalizing another that has long been run down. They don't have the perfect sites, and whether the climate is good is arguable, but the season is long, the customers are there, and most importantly it seems the benefactors are too.

Don,


Speaking of Houston, do you know if re-opening Bear Creek is a possibility? Or is that just off limits due to the Army Corp flood control plans?

[Duncan Cheslett]

There is a great tract of unpoilt linksland between Formby and Southport. It will without doubt stay that way!

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5946533,-3.0624202,2780m/data=!3m1!1e3




Also in North-West England is this wonderful spit of land near Ravenglass. It would be perfect for golf but is a nature reserve!


https://www.google.com/maps/@54.3586282,-3.4477028,4590m/data=!3m1!1e3

[Joey Chase]

There are miles and miles of beautiful dunes land along the Atlantic coast west of Bordeaux, in France.  Unfortunately, there is likely never anything to be built in any of them.