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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« on: June 24, 2020, 10:59:28 PM »
Consider this short hole, designed by an RTJ shop steward in 1963-64, for which this course represents his first (and perhaps only intact) solo design.  Tragic illness (once rumored to be contracted constructing Dorado Beach) laid him low before this first effort opened for play in 1965, confining him to a wheelchair for the rest of his days, which saw a handful of other designs before joining the Palmer design team for the remainder of his career.


Showing the definite influence of his master's tutelage and the design style he initiated (alternately called Course Beautiful, Hard Par-Easy Bogey, Everyday Championship), this course exhibits many of the tropes found in the hi-period of the prolific RTJ... One of those is the "long thin rectangle/ runway tee"...sometimes 50 or more yards of box following a vanishing point down the center of the fairway (or green, as it occurs).  More than the visual geometry, one significant intention of this "style" is to be utilitarian... that each day, the two or three sets of markers can be moved back and forward to allow the hole the play a healthy difference in yardage from the day previous, on most every day. Combined with the easy move of markers to avoid turf wear in any one spot, they usually achieve this goal of utility. Less so today, but it also worked/works in concert with the original fairway bunkers as one day bunker X can be carried from the tee color Y, but not the next day, etc.





But this hole is a one shotter and so creatively twists the concept laterally...creating a short hole that can play either 170 or 125, with nearly a 45 degree difference in wind and angle to the green contours, which (cunningly) are more receptive to the longer shot, played with a usual quartering downwind than they are to the shorter, straight downwind angle from 125. Though its as facile a "Guiness Book" moniker like "Tallest Private Home," I'd bet that this at 125 yards was (when maintained as contiguous teeing ground) was the single "longest/widest tee" in the world of golf (around 10,500 sq feet too).


When I first encountered this hole at age 14 and just starting out in the game, it seemed like a very... "conjured" "showy" kind of thing...quirky cool, but so obviously engineered that my first notions of architecture at the time, were "What constrains the architect?" as well as "how did someone conceive of this?"  I don't know what your reactions may be to it in this first pass, but later on, I discovered "why" this particular hole was laid in this way.... the architect was using/workign around an abandoned rail line as the basic footprint for the tee (and the hole), which can be seen in this fuller view of the property and surrounds....





Indeed, a never used "ghost train" the Westchester Northern, (which never saw a passenger, only partially constructed, and abandoned with the advent of the automobile and railroad re-organization in the 1915-1925 period) cut(s) right through these virgin woods (now Brae Burn CC in Purchase NY) when Frank Duane camped here to route the course in the Fall of 1963.  And the use of the West Northern is not limited to the 5th tee... trestle ruins are deployed as a monumental water hazard between the 15th and 17th holes...it forms the path from the tee plaza to the driving range and as its raised bed makes an amphitheater-like embankment along the approach to the 6th hole as it exits the BB property.


Today the 5th tee is no longer one contiguous teeing ground (so out goes the Guinness title I suppose) as it broken up by a new cart path network and turnaround down the middle of the tee, but the effect and the amusing genius (imo) of it remains.





I put this in a thread to extol this wee bit of design, yes,  but also to invite and continue the discussion of quirk, inventive deployments in courses, the value of the RTJ-utiliatrian philosophy (which extends past the tees to the large segmented/tiered greens), the difference between slaving to a piece of ground or making it serve one's own design ends and so forth.


*** I wished to put up some ground level photos of the hole, but I can't find them just now***
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Peter Pallotta

Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2020, 12:38:18 AM »
VK -
I hadn't seen a runway tee in years, until yesterday -- when I went to visit the course in my new home town on the west coast. And there, on the very first hole, a mid length Par 5, was the longest tee box I've ever seen in my life. It seems to stretch out for 100+ yards -- one big green rectangle. When I first got there there was an older couple teeing off at the forward tees, and I could hardly make them out -- two human-shaped specs in the distance. 15 minutes later, a group of four young men teed off from the very back, right in front of me -- and I could hardly make myself believe what I knew to be true, ie that they were playing the same golf hole as the previous group. BUT: much to my surprise, I thought it worked. Why? Because the fairway was framed by incredibly tall trees, and in the distance loomed the snow-capped peak of Mount Garibaldi, and the adjacent fairway was bordered by a wide and fast moving river. Which is to say: the scale (and grandeur) of the site suddenly made the scale and (in its man-made way) grandeur of the teeing grounds seem just right.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 12:39:50 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 01:54:30 AM »
I have decided that I don't like long tee areas. As Pietro suggests, a long tee area fits a framed hole, often tree lined. That sort of hole is not one I usually think of when remembering my favourite holes. Beyond what a long tee area suggests a hole may look like, there are 3 reasons I don't approve.

1. I don't like a lot of tee area in front of me. It is a reminder of the artificiality of golf. I like tees to sneak into the landscape.

2. If hitting to a valley floor, I want to see the landing area. What is the point of hitting blindly downhill? So, I usually wind up wanting to play close to the front edge of the tee.

3. Width. Smaller tees dotted about promote angles which is the best way to create interest and variety.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2020, 05:38:37 AM »
The use of the old railway line seems on the face off it a pretty cool and very inventive idea.
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 08:00:41 AM »
The use of the old railway line seems on the face off it a pretty cool and very inventive idea.
Atb


Above all, it was very practical in terms of not moving earth, of which a Scotsman would approve.  Maybe not so practical to mow that much tee, though.


Tees (along with bunkers on an inland course) are the most artificial element on a golf course because people want them to be perfectly flat, and some go so far as making them with perfectly square corners.  I prefer to try and make them go away visually, by mowing a big area to distract from the tee within it.  I managed to convert Bill Coore on that idea, so I think I'm winning.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2020, 10:47:42 AM »

Tees (along with bunkers on an inland course) are the most artificial element on a golf course because people want them to be perfectly flat, and some go so far as making them with perfectly square corners.  I prefer to try and make them go away visually, by mowing a big area to distract from the tee within it.  I managed to convert Bill Coore on that idea, so I think I'm winning.


I don't think I'm following your meaning... when you say "TEE" are you talking about the "starting point of the hole represented by the placement of markers"...? .... or are you indicating the "prepared/mown area - teeing ground," wherein those markers can be placed"?


If it's the former, how can the starting point of the hole be an artificial element of golf/design?  Inland sand bunkers, I understand your point, but a tee?  If it's the latter (the whole area), then how does making a larger mown area "hide it"?  Doesn't that visually call attention to the fact, you're on a tee that has been chosen and "made"? Not by wind, centuries of natural erosion or God, but by a pleasant chap once hailing from Sterling Farms?


Regardless, where isn't a tee desirable as "flat" (some grade for drainage)?... in origination, the first tees were a few club-lengths from the previous cup, which wasn't a pancake, but wasn't a hillside either...


As to squared off, flat, that "geometry" seems to be present in courses that go back to ODGs and perhaps beyond it seems. I suspect a historian here will reveal  it's a post-War American bastardization but I've lived in the zeitgeist of it called a "tee box"...which comports with what my eye sees old and new...old photos, new experiences of older places. I'm not saying uniformly, or not without amendment over the years, I'm just saying the squared off rectangle isn't that much of an artificial trope, certainly not like 50-75 inland sand bunkers.


And I like Peter appreciate the "framing"...the geometry... the "Welcome" mat of the house of the hole represented by such treatments... and though I like a large teeing ground for such framing and the RTJ-utility thing, you seem to indicate that you also try to make a large mown area to hide its visual presence...


I mean here's a common tee style on one hole of a Top 75 (anybody's rating) course that has had the best minds in the business, right up until this very day, involved... from ODGs, to "signature" names to canonized modern restorers...what is wrong or artificial about this?  I think it's graceful and refined and contributes to the rich sense of "pathway" that defines a course and individual holes (and the whole damn enterprise, really).... Really, what is disappointing or golf-unnatural about this?...if this is artificial, then I don't care to be natural...give me the aspartame.



Lastly for now...on the contiguous mowing making up the subject tee (#5 on Frank Duane's Brae Burn design)... while it's not that big of a deal practically, it reveals that on the ground, supers, consulting architects, green committees can do whatever they like to a non-ODG design and/or presentation intents.  You don't have to even respect an architect's one and only intact work, if you don't prefer the style...and pearl clutching over cost savings or expensive maintaining is usually the coverage.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2020, 11:56:37 AM »
VK:


If that long, flat rectangle in your picture doesn't stand out to your eye as "artificial", then this conversation isn't worth having.


What I'm saying is that in most landscapes, a big flat spot stands out because the ground is naturally undulating.  Mowing lines defining the flat spot make it stand out much worse, so I try to have the mowing lines not match the shape of the flat spot.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2020, 02:08:47 PM »
VK:

If that long, flat rectangle in your picture doesn't stand out to your eye as "artificial", then this conversation isn't worth having.

What I'm saying is that in most landscapes, a big flat spot stands out because the ground is naturally undulating.  Mowing lines defining the flat spot make it stand out much worse, so I try to have the mowing lines not match the shape of the flat spot.


But in many landscapes and through the ingenuity of routing, there are indeed often big flattened spots to be advantaged (the last picture was one of them...the 12E tee of WF). Even so, why can't it stand out?... I like the contrasts of tight turf to rough grasses...it "feels" like design, it feels like the "departing station" of the hole, it doesn't feel like any compromise to the integrity of the property as per when the glaciers went through.


I suppose then, that the conversation is about the a priori preference between "more visibly artificial" and "less visibly artificial"...the latter (imo) mistakenly glommed with the word, "natural."  I


I say "less" and "mistakenly" because the whole darn thing, any structured game is artificial...the act of hitting a ball to pre-determined targets (by you and your friends in 1820s... by a guy you've never met in 2020) is an artifice.  The ancient prefix "ar" in ars, arts, architecture refers to the making....the building...the creating.  That's what we humans do... we make stuff to imitate the familiar, to make stuff serve a human need, we amend the known stuff, we innovate and create anew.  If you're Judeo-Christian, you have probably heard the "made in God's image" and that God (prolly any religions') is a maker, a Creator.


I won't belabor it here, but it is a larger point I'm angling for in some of my latest threads/posts... is THIS debate. 
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2020, 02:17:01 PM »
Ehm, no.
Archi - Greek for Master
Tekton - Greek for Craftsman/Builder.
At least it was when I went to Architekture Skool!
 ;D
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2020, 02:54:33 PM »
ok... master builder... who is a master maker or creator
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis? New
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2020, 02:58:16 PM »
VK

Your tee example is exactly what I don't like. Unlike Tom, I like the squared off edges in this case. Sometimes hiding tees amongst short grass isn't practical. I object to the shape...though I like the ground level height.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 03:19:28 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2020, 03:45:38 PM »

But in many landscapes and through the ingenuity of routing, there are indeed often big flattened spots to be advantaged (the last picture was one of them...the 12E tee of WF). Even so, why can't it stand out?... I like the contrasts of tight turf to rough grasses...it "feels" like design, it feels like the "departing station" of the hole, it doesn't feel like any compromise to the integrity of the property as per when the glaciers went through.


I suppose then, that the conversation is about the a priori preference between "more visibly artificial" and "less visibly artificial"...the latter (imo) mistakenly glommed with the word, "natural."  I


I say "less" and "mistakenly" because the whole darn thing, any structured game is artificial...the act of hitting a ball to pre-determined targets (by you and your friends in 1820s... by a guy you've never met in 2020) is an artifice. 




VK:  Some of this may just be a matter of personal taste, but on this issue, fair warning:  I'm ready to debate you to the death over it.  ;D   So, here goes:


1.  Yes, there are plenty of natural flat spaces on many properties and in many landscapes.  Yet, when confronted with such a space, many of these yahoos will put two or three feet of fill over a portion of them to build up their tee for visibility.


2.  I'll give you the language point, that "artificial" and "natural" are not exact opposites.


3.  Your last point argues from the context of the GAME of golf, whereas I am arguing on behalf of the LANDSCAPE of golf courses.


4.  But, golf courses in their original form DID NOT INCLUDE TEES AT ALL.


5.  The one thing I will say in favor of runway tees is that at least there aren't four more of them out in front of you on every hole, cluttering the landscape.
[size=78%] [/size][/size][size=78%]  [/size]

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2020, 04:12:57 PM »
Aren’t there some tees at Cavendish that Dr MacK’ positioned on top of an old railway embankment?
Atb

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2020, 04:15:10 PM »
ok... master builder... who is a master maker or creator


Yes, but it most certainly isn’t ‘the prefix ar’.
Do try to keep up.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2020, 04:21:00 PM »
Aren’t there some tees at Cavendish that Dr MacK’ positioned on top of an old railway embankment?
Atb


I didn't know that at Cavendish, but I have seen old railway embankments in a lot of courses.  Those severe bunkers short of the green on the 12th at SFGC are the result of breaking through an old railroad grade and pushing the material to either side!


Also, I did build one green on an old railroad loading dock or something, the 12th at Quail Crossing in Indiana.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2020, 04:42:11 PM »
Aren’t there some tees at Cavendish that Dr MacK’ positioned on top of an old railway embankment?
Atb


Yeah, the fifteenth, and he also built the pushed-up fourteenth green at the base of the embankment, using material harvested from it.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2020, 05:17:47 PM »

VK:  Some of this may just be a matter of personal taste, but on this issue, fair warning:  I'm ready to debate you to the death over it.  ;D   So, here goes:

1.  Yes, there are plenty of natural flat spaces on many properties and in many landscapes.  Yet, when confronted with such a space, many of these yahoos will put two or three feet of fill over a portion of them to build up their tee for visibility.

2.  I'll give you the language point, that "artificial" and "natural" are not exact opposites.

3.  Your last point argues from the context of the GAME of golf, whereas I am arguing on behalf of the LANDSCAPE of golf courses.

4.  But, golf courses in their original form DID NOT INCLUDE TEES AT ALL.


5.  The one thing I will say in favor of runway tees is that at least there aren't four more of them out in front of you on every hole, cluttering the landscape.
[size=78%]  [/size]


We've parried well enough on the semantics; your expertise and ardor are what's good. And I certainly don't like that uni-banal style you referenced for tee treatment... in all things, I like variety...benched into nooks...runways....medium circles...even some tie-ins (though that's properly a maintenance, not purely design, concern).


I respect that you're in a career pursuit of creating uniquely fun golf courses that can be as naturally laid and sustained as is possible for a good long stretch; and I'm on the lookout for beautiful unique golf where I can find it for my stretch, however long or good...



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2020, 05:18:57 PM »
Aren’t there some tees at Cavendish that Dr MacK’ positioned on top of an old railway embankment?
Atb


Yeah, the fifteenth, and he also built the pushed-up fourteenth green at the base of the embankment, using material harvested from it.


The fifth green is also built into the base of the railway embankment, and the sixth tee sits on top adjacent to the  aforementioned fifteenth.


In MacKenzie’s original routing the current fifteenth played as the sixth, and the current sixth as the seventeenth.


Within a year of being open for play however, the order of holes was changed. What Dr MacKenzie thought of this is sadly not known!

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2020, 05:18:42 AM »
Aren’t there some tees at Cavendish that Dr MacK’ positioned on top of an old railway embankment?
Atb

Yeah, the fifteenth, and he also built the pushed-up fourteenth green at the base of the embankment, using material harvested from it.

The fifth green is also built into the base of the railway embankment, and the sixth tee sits on top adjacent to the  aforementioned fifteenth.

In MacKenzie’s original routing the current fifteenth played as the sixth, and the current sixth as the seventeenth.

Within a year of being open for play however, the order of holes was changed. What Dr MacKenzie thought of this is sadly not known!


The fifteenth is my favourite hole at Cavendish, because of the green, but I think the fourteenth green is possibly the course's best single piece of architecture. To build a severely pushed-up green on pancake flat ground using material pulled forward from a railway embankment behind it I think is genius. It doesn't look natural at all, but it is very, very clever.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural Advantage? Artificial Outlandish? Sui Generis?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2020, 05:36:59 AM »
Aren’t there some tees at Cavendish that Dr MacK’ positioned on top of an old railway embankment?
Atb

Yeah, the fifteenth, and he also built the pushed-up fourteenth green at the base of the embankment, using material harvested from it.

The fifth green is also built into the base of the railway embankment, and the sixth tee sits on top adjacent to the  aforementioned fifteenth.

In MacKenzie’s original routing the current fifteenth played as the sixth, and the current sixth as the seventeenth.

Within a year of being open for play however, the order of holes was changed. What Dr MacKenzie thought of this is sadly not known!


The fifteenth is my favourite hole at Cavendish, because of the green, but I think the fourteenth green is possibly the course's best single piece of architecture. To build a severely pushed-up green on pancake flat ground using material pulled forward from a railway embankment behind it I think is genius. It doesn't look natural at all, but it is very, very clever.

The use of the wall sets this hole apart as well.  Brilliant design!  Probably my favourite hole at Cavendish only because I dig it when something is made from nothing without really changing the nature of the nothing.  ;D

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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