[Ronald Montesano]

Happy Father's Day 2020 to all.


Harbor Town makes the technology question go away. It has no interest in width, and loves its trees and residences. It is the ideal place for professional golfers to ply their trade, and be forced to take less than driver (and still get in trouble.) Let's make a list. Copy and paste each time you go (you may have to play with formatting of Font Size, as you know how this DG gets) and build a list of courses with architectural interest that are also constrained by trees (and not by gorse, as Mark Fine mentioned when discussing TNC at St. Andrews.)


1. HarboUr Town
2. Sahalee
3.
4.
5.
6.

[Mark_Fine]

Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads here. 


Ronald,
You know the list is endless of great courses where trees influence/impact strategy.  You should have started with that course in NJ, I think it is called Pine Valley     They have taken out thousands of trees but they still line most every hole.  Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Sommerset Hills, The Olympic Club, Brookline, Southern Hills, Oyster Harbors,  ......I could type for days. 


Harbour Town only constrains the bombers but most older courses do, who cares.  Davis Love once said he didn’t need his driver at Pine Valley.  Does that make it any less of a great golf course. Colonial was much the same, tight and with trees.  Enjoy the variety different courses offer and deal with it 


Note: The reason I used The “New” Course at St. Andrews as an example is to show that variety has existed for a long time.  Doesn’t mean we can’t all have favorite types of courses but don’t say a course sucks just because every fairway isn’t 60 yards wide.  I enjoy width (I try to restore it often on older golf courses that have been narrowed up) but sometimes width for the sake of width is a waste of money and real estate. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Thank you, Mark. Doesn't really add to what I was after, and here's why: the courses that you mention are not Tour courses. At best, they are US Open courses, once in a decade. They are ODG courses that are not interested in hosting annual professional events. Would you really compare any of them, other than Olympic Club, with Sahalee and Harbor Town? Are the trees that intrusive, on that many holes?


For the rest of y'uns/youse guys/all y'all, here is the listing again, with OC added (despite not being interested in hosting an annual event.) If the tour had 4-5 Harbor Towns on its schedule each year, we wouldn't beef as much about technology.


1. Harbour Town
2. Sahalee
3. Olympic Club
4.
5.
6.

[jeffwarne]

Assuming the two examples above are accurate, you can add any firm fast links..


Except in all three cases driving irons, 3 woods, hybrids and Senior Tour golfers with drivers(Watson at Turnberry) make them more susceptible to low scoring, by allowing more players to be in play and potentially "on"
i.e. Watson can hit his driver where 30 year olds are forced to hit long irons to the same spot.


Simply more players in the game when much of the field is reduced to less than driver on many/most holes.
Look no farther than the barrage of 63's yesterday and the tightly bunched field.
Hard to separate when more people are in position off the tee due to far less separation of skill drivers.


You want to find out who's a great driver, let 'em hit driver....and to do do that it takes either an incredibly clever design,a silly setup, an accident of technology(Colonial-just fly it over previously shot shaping required doglegs) or a really long modern slog of 8000 plus yards...


many of our discussions start with architectural "intent"
That ship sailed on many of our classic courses years ago for elites-a shame, because many of those courses were designed to test elites, yet were playable for the rest due to less substantial scale differences
We can all say "who cares about the PGA Tour", but maybe the PGA Tour player or elite am would like to face challenges such as Hogan, Nicklaus and even early Woods faced and overcame, and separated themselves from the field with.
Not just how to hit one of 4-5 wedges with precise distance control.

[Tim_Weiman]

Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads here. 


Ronald,
You know the list is endless of great courses where trees influence/impact strategy.  You should have started with that course in NJ, I think it is called Pine Valley     They have taken out thousands of trees but they still line most every hole.  Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Sommerset Hills, The Olympic Club, Brookline, Southern Hills, Oyster Harbors,  ......I could type for days. 


Harbour Town only constrains the bombers but most older courses do, who cares.  Davis Love once said he didn’t need his driver at Pine Valley.  Does that make it any less of a great golf course. Colonial was much the same, tight and with trees.  Enjoy the variety different courses offer and deal with it 


Note: The reason I used The “New” Course at St. Andrews as an example is to show that variety has existed for a long time.  Doesn’t mean we can’t all have favorite types of courses but don’t say a course sucks just because every fairway isn’t 60 yards wide.  I enjoy width (I try to restore it often on older golf courses that have been narrowed up) but sometimes width for the sake of width is a waste of money and real estate.

Mark,


I don’t recall any golfer hitting a tree when the Walker Cup was played at Pine Valley. As Bob Lewis once told me, the course is all about the greens.

[Thomas Dai]

There’s another issues here I suggest ... patience.
How many elite pros and amateurs can resist for 4-rounds, 72-holes, the temptation to hit Driver or even 3-metal?
NIcklaus could and did. Tiger could and did. Faldo could and did. Some others too. But lay-up positional play can be, is, taxing on the brain of most folks and to have the mental fortitude and patience to do so for 4-rounds, 72-holes takes I suggest, a strong, clear mind.
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
If you are correct that would be mind boggling because there are trees lining basically all the holes.  If you miss a fairway (hook it left or block it right) on 1 you are in the trees.  Same on 2 and 4 and 5 and 7 and 8 and 9 ....  The saying at Pine Valley is most people make more doubles than bogies because if you miss a shot, recovery is brutal, if you can find your golf ball.  I have played about a dozen rounds there and while I call it a second shot golf course, those who are wild off the tee or into the greens are not going to have much fun.

[Bernie Bell]

Firestone South

But why the restriction re gorse? Or 6-inch fescue for that matter?  It's easier to advance the ball from some tree-lined US parkland "bowling alleys" than some GB&I links with nasty rough.  A bowling alley is a bowling alley. 

[Mark_Fine]

Ronald,
How about Valderamma!  Talk about trees impacting play.  As Mr. Jones called them, “bunkers in the sky”!

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,
If you are correct that would be mind boggling because there are trees lining basically all the holes.  If you miss a fairway (hook it left or block it right) on 1 you are in the trees.  Same on 2 and 4 and 5 and 7 and 8 and 9 ....  The saying at Pine Valley is most people make more doubles than bogies because if you miss a shot, recovery is brutal, if you can find your golf ball.  I have played about a dozen rounds there and while I call it a second shot golf course, those who are wild off the tee or into the greens are not going to have much fun.

Mark,


I agree that a person wild off the tee won’t have much fun at Pine Valley, but I don’t recall any guys like that at the Walker Cup. As for my own experience on the course, my approach was very simple: aim for the middle of the fairway. Just not worth getting too aggressive (on holes like #1,6, 12, 13 and 16) unless one is a really skilled player.

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
Let's face it, you need to be a pretty good player to play well and enjoy Pine Valley unless you don't mind putting a lot of X's on your card.  Most of the tee shots are not as intimidating as the approach shots but trees are a factor though they have done a great job removing thousands over the last few years.  I have photos from the past of large pines growing in the bunkers and trust me Crump did not intend it that way.  Look at early Pine Valley photos compared even to today and you won't believe the difference. 


Ronald can add Spyglass Hill to his list. 

[V. Kmetz]

Tim,
Let's face it, you need to be a pretty good player to play well and enjoy Pine Valley unless you don't mind putting a lot of X's on your card. 

If that is true (and I, with no playings, one Crump Cup visit plus countless hours of study and hear-tell from afar agree that it is)... why is this one of the perennial top, if not toppest, courses in the world. Why isn't that resultant feature "staining" as opposed to something covered with rouge?

A fan could make that same statement about Medalist or Torrey Pines or Hudson National or Atlanta Athletic Club... and each course would take (has taken) some (or a lot) of heat for it. But Pine Valley?...  People will cover a 500 sq foot expansion of one of its fairways as a matter for acid free gloves and nervous-making.

I genuinely thought that a great deal of GCA's 20-25 year turn from RTJ, Dye and Fazio was the agreement that its no great trick to make something difficult conceptually; many times all it takes is money...and that is unsustainable for most courses/clubs not on TV.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,
Let's face it, you need to be a pretty good player to play well and enjoy Pine Valley unless you don't mind putting a lot of X's on your card.  Most of the tee shots are not as intimidating as the approach shots but trees are a factor though they have done a great job removing thousands over the last few years.  I have photos from the past of large pines growing in the bunkers and trust me Crump did not intend it that way.  Look at early Pine Valley photos compared even to today and you won't believe the difference. 


Ronald can add Spyglass Hill to his list.

Mark,


I agree you need to be a very good player to enjoy Pine Valley - disaster is constantly lurking. I once played in a group with Ernie Ransome and I remember him explaining to his guests on the 1st tee: “don’t try to cut the corner....you don’t want to start off with a disaster”.

[Thomas Dai]

I don't reckon it's realistic to compare tree lined courses with gorse.
Gorse only grows 10-15 ft high so shots can be played over it quite easily. Not the same with trees, especially if your ball is sitting close to them.
atb

[Ben Hollerbach]

Hmm,


I would argue that technology was critical in the low scoring this weekend as it provided a greater level of accuracy and control, affording the players the option to play driver off of the tee more frequently. Force the field to play a 43" steel shafted block of persimmon and they may be a whole lot less inclined to play any wood off of the tee. Technology was hugely relevant this week.


Granted, and probably more to you specific point, The tight, serpentineing, tree lined fairways made driving of the ball much more difficult and encouraged more less than driver play off of the tee than typical week to week on the PGA tour. So in that way, distance off of the tee did not matter as much this week.

[jeffwarne]

Hmm,


I would argue that technology was critical in the low scoring this weekend as it provided a greater level of accuracy and control, affording the players the option to play driver off of the tee more frequently. Force the field to play a 43" steel shafted block of persimmon and they may be a whole lot less inclined to play any wood off of the tee. Technology was hugely relevant this week.


Granted, and probably more to you specific point, The tight, serpentineing, tree lined fairways made driving of the ball much more difficult and encouraged more less than driver play off of the tee than typical week to week on the PGA tour. So in that way, distance off of the tee did not matter as much this week.

and nowadays the choice of less than driver(3 wood, hybrid or driving iron), generally goes farther than the driver of 1970, resulting in more players starting in the fairway at driver distance or more, then add the ones that ripped driver in fairway and of course scoring will go down.

[Pat Burke]

Even though there is some room For driver I’d say Kingston Heath


Positioning Off the tee and placement on correct part of green give great opportunity to shoot good scores


Put it in wrong places with tournament conditions and boy it can get you

[cary lichtenstein]

I played Harbour Town several times on a guys trip many years ago. I hated the course, too narrow to really enjoy but it was a good test for the pros, but the way they pick it apart with 62/63/64's, is it really a legit test anymore?


Break out the Persimmon woods and Balta Balls for this once a year and play it that way, what fun that would be

[David Ober]

I played Harbour Town several times on a guys trip many years ago. I hated the course, too narrow to really enjoy but it was a good test for the pros, but the way they pick it apart with 62/63/64's, is it really a legit test anymore?


Break out the Persimmon woods and Balta Balls for this once a year and play it that way, what fun that would be

They did that this year because of the time of the year. Very different conditions from when they usually play it. It generally holds its own when they play it when they can get the greens firm and fast.

[Thomas Dai]

Hmm,
I would argue that technology was critical in the low scoring this weekend as it provided a greater level of accuracy and control, affording the players the option to play driver off of the tee more frequently. Force the field to play a 43" steel shafted block of persimmon and they may be a whole lot less inclined to play any wood off of the tee. Technology was hugely relevant this week.
Granted, and probably more to you specific point, The tight, serpentineing, tree lined fairways made driving of the ball much more difficult and encouraged more less than driver play off of the tee than typical week to week on the PGA tour. So in that way, distance off of the tee did not matter as much this week.

and nowadays the choice of less than driver(3 wood, hybrid or driving iron), generally goes farther than the driver of 1970, resulting in more players starting in the fairway at driver distance or more, then add the ones that ripped driver in fairway and of course scoring will go down.

+1
An oft forgotten aspect of modern balls and clubs is that they allow the longer player to hit less than a Driver the same distance that a Driver would once upon a time have gone and with greater accuracy as well. Plus the modern ball goes straighter and moves sideways less in the wind.
A relatively easy way for bombers who use the space between their ears and display patience to play most of the time and when they have a week where their game is hot it can be the blast a Driver game.
Atb

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark...thank you for those contributions. Valderrama (Valley of the branches!!) for sure.


One of you denizens asked "why not gorse"? A flat bowling alley is not a vertical bowling alley. Mark's reminder of Trent's "bunkers in the sky" comment epitomizes the emphasis on tree-lined bowling alleys. With gorse, you can swing a ball left or right over it; with trees, ball go thud.

[Peter Pallotta]

Canted fairways and wide & firmly conditioned fairways bordered by thick rough, and reverse cambers to small sloping greens.

I don't think it has firm/dry fairways, but even if it did I'd still be a bit embarrassed about my great affection for Olympic, both as a championship test and as a members club -- because many of the cognoscenti and experienced posters here don't seem to hold it in the same high regard.

But at the very least it does seem to be an answer to Ron's original question; and to me an example of the 'very clever' design that Jeff W references -- even if in the last many years so few experts identify it as such.

[Bernie Bell]

Mark...thank you for those contributions. Valderrama (Valley of the branches!!) for sure.


One of you denizens asked "why not gorse"? A flat bowling alley is not a vertical bowling alley. Mark's reminder of Trent's "bunkers in the sky" comment epitomizes the emphasis on tree-lined bowling alleys. With gorse, you can swing a ball left or right over it; with trees, ball go thud.

Quite a few balls were driven over the trees at HT.  And its not just the pros who can do that these days.  And with trees recovery is often possible, depending on maintenance practices.  Gorse not so.  Even with links rough, the height obviously can be adjusted more easily than the height of trees, but on courses that regularly keep a height where you can't advance a ball even if you're lucky enough to find it, how is that any less of a bowling alley than a treed parkland course?

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