HarbourTown = Bowling Alley

[jeffwarne]

185's not 8 or 9 iron? see Koepka, Bryson, Rory
I agree-a 145-165 yard shot would be better



When I was doing Firekeeper with Notah Begay III, the 16th was a par 3 and for total length, we added a small tee up a hill to get it to 210 or so.  The green was nicely rolling, draining to the front left and back right, with a ridge dividing.  Notah directed taking the back tee out because he felt the green fit a "160-180 shot."  He was pretty articulate, but that was something he "just felt" and couldn't describe.  I took it as some sense of proportional challenge or punishment, most likely the green contours would allow him to attack a pin with a shorter iron, but not a longer one.  (Of course, as a shorter hitter on tour, he probably was going to hit a 3-4 iron in at 210, not the 5-6 many longer players would.)


It was a design concept I would have really liked to flesh out more, so if Jeff W (or anyone else!) can articulate what you mean by that any better than NBIII, please feel free to attempt it.  What kind of green shape, contours, etc. make a green "too hard" for a shot over "X" yards?

I'm afraid I'm no better than NBlll
Just like porn-know it when I see it
14 HT from new back tee is just that(trees overhanging and in play left, pot bunker and OB left, water hard right to green)
and 5 at Pebble's new tee probably qualifies as well
(can you see I struggle with change?)That said, I don't have to play those tees on those holes.
#7 at Palmetto-postage stamp green with sharp fallaway(20 feet right) gunch left-
135-160 yards-great hole
the new 180 tee doesn't make it better, but could provide turf relief to the other tees


Doesn't make HT a bad or good course(I'm not a rater), just not one I'm dying to visit again on my infrequent trips to the Low Country.


HT provides an interesting tour site and enjoyable week of competitive golf, in a era where that's harder and harder to do.
Though I'm sad things have gone that direction, I appreciate HT for its uniqueness-but then one won't see a lot of unique places if he repeatedly uses his finite time to return to courses they weren't enamored with to start with(or their game didn't suit) because they're giving it "another chance"
I'd rather save the return trips to the many, many courses I can't wait to get back to.
Which is why I'd be a crappy rater...

[Mark_Fine]

Tom, Jeff and others,
Some of us will remember that Pebble Beach used to be horrible conditions and 6 hour rounds.  I remember getting to #7 one time and there were six groups on the hole.  If I based my current opinions about Pebble on what it was once like vs what it is like now (many new architectural changes as well) it would be silly.  Very much like my own out dated comments about The New Course at St. Andrews being narrow corridors lined with gorse where most or your time when I played it was spent looking for your own or your playing partners golf balls.  My assessment is out dated as Sean commented earlier that, "St. Andrews New has been cleared to some degree.  It's no longer wall to wall crap."  It is up to me, but I should go see/play it again before commenting much more about the golf course.  HT and LC are much different as well after all the work that has been done on both. And for goodness sakes, we shouldn't comment based on TV.  I had one friend who watched the Heritage tell me, HT looks much better when there are not lines of spectators and stands crowding the golf course.  No shit, but you still shouldn't be judging a course when it is set up for a PGA event.  I am anxious to see the work done at Winged Foot (I hated those Fazio bunkers) and also want to see the new greens Gil built at Merion.  Until then, I won't say much about either course because I just don't know what is there now. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,


First, to everyone else, I hope you add initials to those of us with the same first name, but differing last names because some times, I am not sure which person you are addressing.   If your comment is snarky, I presume its me, but it would be nice to be sure.....


JeffW,


I can see a postage stamp green with potential 2 shot hazard in close would not be a great 180 shot.


NBIII was pretty scientific about things.  He knew (and like most pros, could visually assess) that a target needed to be 10% of his effective approach distance to aim at the flag.  (The USGA Slope system says low handicappers are at about 12%, until you get over 180 yards when misses miss wider).  I guess that shows those guys are about 20% better at long irons than the best ams, no?


Even more so, I once saw him play a short par 3 at a grand opening (also of my design, but not his) and hit shot after shot to the shortest par 3.  There was a little knob that they set the pin too close to, and he tried hitting at it, slightly left, right, short and long.  In every case, he couldn't get the ball close on such a short shot.  He thought it was bad design or cup setting....(I favored the latter explanation, of course.)  So, I suspect, he looks at the green contours on a 180 yard shot or 210 yard shot and can kind of imagine whether or not the contours would hurt a good shot too much.


I suspect this because I had tried to explain designs to other pros I worked with and was repeatedly told they don't look at surrounding hazards when planning the shot, because they don't think (or won't let themselves think) that they will hit them.  They look at green contours and how they can use them to get the ball close to the hole.  While many here would purposely try to build in contours to stop them and kick them off the green, they kind of wonder why anyone would design a feature that didn't allow their good shots to get close to the pin. 


That is why many really dislike 2 tiered greens.  A shot that comes up 2 feet short can end up 20 yards away from the hole.  Again, non proportional punishment.  One told me that "distinct shelves are okay, as long as there aren't more than 4 on the course!"  Not sure why 4 and not 3 or 2, but 4 was his max before counting a course down.  Good thing he wasn't a rater.  And, going back to NBIII and the par 3 green, he probably visually saw the green really was 2 distinct targets, and one or both were smaller than his 10% rule for adequate size.  His eye is pretty good, because using his method, that 30 yard tee shot difference equates to 9 feet narrower or wider.

[Edward Glidewell]

I’m not a very talented golfer, but I don’t remember ever hunting a shot OB on Prestwick or HT. If OB is a problem for someone these I think they have more important issues to deal with than the width of the fairways.

Those issues go hand in hand. If OB is a problem for someone, they're even more likely to hit it OB on firm, bouncy turf, because the ball will go that much farther offline (barring deep rough, which nobody wants) after hitting the ground. I think most people prefer playing in firm, bouncy links-like conditions under ideal circumstances, but many golf courses (especially in certain areas of the US) have designs that could be overly penal in those conditions.


To be fair, I'm not claiming Harbour Town is definitely one. I've been there, but never played it. I'm also not saying any course should be wet with plugged balls. Just that there's a middle ground that may be the ideal for some courses.

[V. Kmetz]

It's just one thread in thousands, but I'm enjoying the detailed, varied discussion. As I opened this thread, I've been trying to have this talk for the last two years, directly using HarbourTown as a subject, because I see it pulls out nuances of congealed opinion like taffy.  As stated, I've never played it, but I have never had to play it to realize that you can't be so quick to call for tree-genocide, or dismiss flat ground, or sniff at manufactured, imposed features or fail to appreciate the validity of "you miss-you're screwed" out of their context...

It would (and may still) bear other threads but I hope that the thread casts in full relief to most of you what it does to me; that too often we talk about the wrong things, about the wrong courses, with too much federal conclusion for the entirety of GCA, for the game, for the people who play it. And in doing so, only highlight and rank good golf, good GCA as "most absence of imperfection," when its variety (as MF said) and the elite challenge (as PB said) and design's historical merit (as many including TD said) render "perfection" moot (or at least inscrutable) even at Cypress, PV or RM... and as matter for the vibrancy of the game, Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson winning a major later this year will boost golf more than a clarion call to arms over mowing lines and tournament-based disfigurement of original design intents.

There's a spectacular Top 200 Met course, from a prolific legendary designer.... that I hate; but it is a marvel.  It tips out the greens past 13, has arduous hills, tee to green trails, rarely permits carts as a cultural statement; but it is a marvel.  Only the finest players can handle it (even its CC flight of Cary Grant-like jobless young gentleman, who do little but golf, don't often sniff par in the qualifier); but it is a marvel.  It has ridiculous forced carries, lost ball fescue, and so many tees that I suppose the course could nearly be played in all four directions of the compass; but it is a marvel.  Its original building and current maintenance costs are like like from NASA; construction was nearly an environmental felony in its time and its club environment is now (perhaps always?) the most sickeningly curated boujy aesthetic straight from the pages of Cigar Aficionado; but it is a marvel.  The course is never left alone..re-grassing, new bunkers, new tees, greens grown out, trees go down, others go up (some re-mediated after going down) new putting green, new range, new short game area... but it is still a marvel.

And still with all its faults and all its marvel, I think you be hard pressed to say IT is not worth a visit (for any of the reasons you like playing and seeing courses) before Pine Valley. If you had to line up both courses shot for shot, view for view, foot step for foot step, cost for cost... they are both quite amazing designs in their own right.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, Jeff and others,
Some of us will remember that Pebble Beach used to be horrible conditions and 6 hour rounds.  I remember getting to #7 one time and there were six groups on the hole.  If I based my current opinions about Pebble on what it was once like vs what it is like now (many new architectural changes as well) it would be silly. 


I am anxious to see the work done at Winged Foot (I hated those Fazio bunkers) and also want to see the new greens Gil built at Merion.  Until then, I won't say much about either course because I just don't know what is there now.

Mark:


Once again -- has your opinion of the architecture at Pebble Beach changed significantly in the last thirty years?  Really?  They let the 17th green get stupidly small, and now it's not so small, and they replaced the 5th which we discussed for too long a few months back, but the things that make Pebble Beach worth visiting have not changed at all since I first saw it in 1974, and they are not going to change between now and 2074, I pray.


As to your last point, I am anxious ABOUT seeing Winged Foot or Merion because I cannot believe they tore up the whole place when they were so good as they were.  Nothing new for Merion of course, they have done it once before, when ironically some of Gil's closest friends were the biggest skeptics.

[Tom_Doak]

I have spent my entire life imagining what the future will hold. I would be shocked if Nicklaus and/or Dye never imagined those shots.

John:


I had the thought that I wished I could call Mr. Dye and ask him.  Too late for that, but it did cause me to dig out his book.  You were right about #15, anyway.  From BURY ME IN A POT BUNKER:


"Jack could attempt to hit the green in two, since he could loft the ball high enough to scale the trees that protect the green.  Other Tour players took a crack at hitting the green in two as well, and spectators at the Heritage Classic thoroughly enjoyed watching them blast away.


Over the years, those trees by the green have grown a great deal, but the powers that be have refused my repeated requests to cut the tops back.  Unfortunately, the hole isn't as exciting as it once was because no one ever tries to go for the green in two."




So I guess Pete is smiling up there today.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I have always loved Pebble Beach but I do believe it has gotten better over time.  It did, however, have a stretch there where some of the changes being made were 

I had the opportunity in 2019 to spend an hour or two going around the course with Eric Lippert and talking about some of the changes/improvements they had made or were making which was fun.  The reason I mentioned Pebble was because some here cited the poor conditions at Harbour Town as part of the reason they didn't care for the golf course   Just like at Pebble, that has changed dramatically from what they once were.  Furthermore, the trees are cited at Harbour Town as a big concern by some and while the course still features many of them that influence play, there has been a lot of work done to open up some of the corridors and widen certain areas where trees had encroached.  It looks great (probably like The New Course does if a lot of that wall to wall crap as Sean called it has been removed). 

I am with you about Merion    but Winged Foot definitely needed a bunker renovation.  Anxious to see both. 

[William_G]

Tom, Jeff and others,
Some of us will remember that Pebble Beach used to be horrible conditions and 6 hour rounds.  I remember getting to #7 one time and there were six groups on the hole.  If I based my current opinions about Pebble on what it was once like vs what it is like now (many new architectural changes as well) it would be silly. 
 

Mark:


Once again -- has your opinion of the architecture at Pebble Beach changed significantly in the last thirty years?  Really?  They let the 17th green get stupidly small, and now it's not so small, and they replaced the 5th which we discussed for too long a few months back, but the things that make Pebble Beach worth visiting have not changed at all since I first saw it in 1974, and they are not going to change between now and 2074, I pray.

one word, erosion!

[Rob Marshall]

I have spent my entire life imagining what the future will hold. I would be shocked if Nicklaus and/or Dye never imagined those shots.

John:


I had the thought that I wished I could call Mr. Dye and ask him.  Too late for that, but it did cause me to dig out his book.  You were right about #15, anyway.  From BURY ME IN A POT BUNKER:


"Jack could attempt to hit the green in two, since he could loft the ball high enough to scale the trees that protect the green.  Other Tour players took a crack at hitting the green in two as well, and spectators at the Heritage Classic thoroughly enjoyed watching them blast away.


Over the years, those trees by the green have grown a great deal, but the powers that be have refused my repeated requests to cut the tops back.  Unfortunately, the hole isn't as exciting as it once was because no one ever tries to go for the green in two."




So I guess Pete is smiling up there today.

Does anyone know if they lost any of the trees that were guarding the 15th when hurricane Matthew hit. I remember a taller tree on that corner but it’s probably been 10 or 12 years since I’ve been there.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I would ask those who have played Harbour Town and Long Cove, which is close by, which course they prefer.  I really liked Long Cove and found it to be far more interesting than HT with far more variety of holes.  My recollection is great enough to be more specific but I wonder what others think.

Long Cove, 7-3 over HT. Much more day-to-day variety. I think Colleton River is also better than HT, too. And this isn't a knock on HT, I just don't think its Dye's best in the HH area.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have spent my entire life imagining what the future will hold. I would be shocked if Nicklaus and/or Dye never imagined those shots.

John:


I had the thought that I wished I could call Mr. Dye and ask him.  Too late for that, but it did cause me to dig out his book.  You were right about #15, anyway.  From BURY ME IN A POT BUNKER:


"Jack could attempt to hit the green in two, since he could loft the ball high enough to scale the trees that protect the green.  Other Tour players took a crack at hitting the green in two as well, and spectators at the Heritage Classic thoroughly enjoyed watching them blast away.


Over the years, those trees by the green have grown a great deal, but the powers that be have refused my repeated requests to cut the tops back.  Unfortunately, the hole isn't as exciting as it once was because no one ever tries to go for the green in two."




So I guess Pete is smiling up there today.

Thanks for digging that up.

[Mark_Fine]

Anthony,
I can't argue with you.  I really like HT and LC.  They are both very different challenges which is why I enjoy each of them.  You are spot on about Colleton River.  The Dye course there is one of Pete's best and frankly few know this.  I have played there a dozen or more times and every time I go I like it more and more.  It has everything that Pete is known for but it is a manufactured golf course not a found one 


Rob,
Those tall trees are still there.  If they lost any near the green on that hole during the hurricane you wouldn't know it.  It really is amazing that guys can knock it over those trees from 250+ yards away.  I do agree with Tom that those trees do reduce strategy on that hole (they at least reduce a lot of the temptation that would be there to challenge that green in two). That said, it is a three shot hole for all but the longest hitters.  I will say that the last hurricane did have some positives for golf courses in that trees that normally could not be touched due to local rules could be "addressed".  I worked on one course down there and we cleaned up a lot.  Harbour Town and many other courses did the same.  LC had a ton of tree damage but if you play it now you would only say it looks and plays even better. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have said for years that, with the exception of Tullymore and St. Ives (given 5 stars by "Places to Play") in north/central Michigan, Harbor Town is by far the most overrated golf course I have ever played.


For once, I agree with VK...;p-)


I liked 9, 16, 17, 18.
Outside of that, the holes are just a blur of trees, homes and cart paths.


It was "one and done" for me.

[Eric Smith]

Like it or not, if you can’t spell Harbour Town correctly, your opinion of it isn’t going to be taken that seriously.

[A.G._Crockett]

Put me solidly in the camp of people that LOVE Harbour Town.  Whatever I expected, it far exceeded that.  I did not in ANY way feel like I was playing in a "bowling alley" or anything like that, and I still believe it to be the coolest set of par 3's I've ever seen.  (And fwiw, I'm not especially a fan of Dye courses in general, though I have immense respect for his genius and his place in GCA history.)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Like it or not, if you can’t spell Harbour Town correctly, your opinion of it isn’t going to be taken that seriously.

Like it or not, I dont give a F**K what you like or not....;-)

[Eric Smith]

Like it or not, if you can’t spell Harbour Town correctly, your opinion of it isn’t going to be taken that seriously.

Like it or not, I dont give a F**K what you like or not....;-)


The day that grammar, spelling and diction become requisites for offering opinions on "chat boards" is the day that 90% of all participants get criticized by some bored ass-hat with the awfully mundane name, Eric Smith.


Your name is so boring that it immediately disqualifies you from anything except maybe Netflix commentary...


My opinion about Harbor Town is shared by many.


And I dont give a F88k how to spell "Harbor" as it related to this course.
In fact, according to every dictionary in the US, it is spelled incorrectly....


Harbour vs. HarborBoth words carry the same definitions, both as verbs and as nouns. As nouns, they are defined as an area near a coast, where ships are kept away from the water of the sea. As verbs, "harbour" and "harbor" can either refer to feeling or thinking about something for a long while (e.g.: "to harbor/harbour doubts/feelings/thoughts/hopes), or to hiding/covering something or someone bad or wrong (e.g.: to habour/harbor a murderer/murder/criminal/crime etc.).The only difference illustrated by their different spellings is the type of English where they are used. "Harbour" is the UK spelling, whereas "harbor" is the US spelling.When do we use "harbour"?"Harbour" is the UKspelling for the noun/verb with the same meaning as "harbor". So even though you can replace it in any context where "harbor" is used, it is recommended that you spell "harbour" especially if you are engaged in a British conversation.When do we use "harbor"?The same applies as above. "Harbor" is a perfectsynonym for "harbour", though it's recommended you spell it without "u" if you have a conversation in US English, whether it's American, Australian etc.

Are you ok?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Like it or not, if you can’t spell Harbour Town correctly, your opinion of it isn’t going to be taken that seriously.

Like it or not, I dont give a F**K what you like or not....;-)


The day that grammar, spelling and diction become requisites for offering opinions on "chat boards" is the day that 90% of all participants get criticized by some bored ass-hat with the awfully mundane name, Eric Smith.


Your name is so boring that it immediately disqualifies you from anything except maybe Netflix commentary...


My opinion about Harbor Town is shared by many.


And I dont give a F88k how to spell "Harbor" as it related to this course.
In fact, according to every dictionary in the US, it is spelled incorrectly....


Harbour vs. HarborBoth words carry the same definitions, both as verbs and as nouns. As nouns, they are defined as an area near a coast, where ships are kept away from the water of the sea. As verbs, "harbour" and "harbor" can either refer to feeling or thinking about something for a long while (e.g.: "to harbor/harbour doubts/feelings/thoughts/hopes), or to hiding/covering something or someone bad or wrong (e.g.: to habour/harbor a murderer/murder/criminal/crime etc.).The only difference illustrated by their different spellings is the type of English where they are used. "Harbour" is the UK spelling, whereas "harbor" is the US spelling.When do we use "harbour"?"Harbour" is the UKspelling for the noun/verb with the same meaning as "harbor". So even though you can replace it in any context where "harbor" is used, it is recommended that you spell "harbour" especially if you are engaged in a British conversation.When do we use "harbor"?The same applies as above. "Harbor" is a perfectsynonym for "harbour", though it's recommended you spell it without "u" if you have a conversation in US English, whether it's American, Australian etc.

Are you ok?

Fatigued by people who choose to criticize rather than contribute.


It's such a trend in today's society. It's just so lazy and sloppy. Draws attention to that you actually have nothing to say and have zero confidence and conviction in advancing an opinion of your own.


So, yes, I am fine and offered tongue-in-cheek commentary to your witless line.


Hence the myriad emojis...

[JC Jones]

I'd be interested to hear the Doak rating on this...

VK:


I went to my review from the 1996 edition of The Confidential Guide, for perspective.  [The course got an 8 then, I think I demoted it to a 7 this time, in concert with demoting Long Cove from a 9 to an 8.]  Here was my review:


"Harbour Town holds a special place in my heart, because it was the first really good golf course I saw, and it gave an impressionable youth a taste for golf architecture.  It is rightly famous among American courses for marking a turning point in the history of golf architecture, away from the Trent Jones school to the Pete Dye school, and there are an enormous number of good strategic holes despite the flattish ground and lack of total length.  There is indeed a fine set of short holes, although I do not agree that they are the best set in the world -- they're much too similar.


However, I would be inclined to agree with Pete that the course is somewhat overrated by many critics.  The Tour players love it for its tiny greens, which demand precise iron play, but these proved to be less than fuctional at a resort which does 70,000 rounds of golf annually. . . ."




(It used to bother Mr. Dye that so many people thought Harbour Town was his best course.  He did not think so, but you can't argue with TV.)


The strategy of Harbour Town is confined to a much narrower space than most other courses we talk about, but it's still there -- there are many holes where you have a shot at the green if you miss the fairway on one side, and no shot if you miss just to the other side.


The genius of it, to me, is how exciting the course looks and plays, considering how flat the ground is.  It was routed by George Cobb the same as any of the other courses at Sea Pines Plantation, which were 3's and 4's on the Doak Scale.  But Mr. Dye's imagination and craftsmanship made it into something worth seeing and playing.

I agree.  Harbour Town was and remains one of America's most important courses and is a fine test of ball striking and strategic thinking.  I dont have it as the best Dye course I've played either but its far better than the cliched bashing it gets on this website.

[Jerry Kluger]

I played Colleton River with a member and we both used push carts and it was a really good day.  What I found really interesting was that the front nine was away from the water and was heavily bunkered, etc., while the back nine went out toward the river and did not have so many of those types of features which I believe was because the back nine was much windier.  I cannot remember a course with such a difference in front and back nines in that respect.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I played Colleton River with a member and we both used push carts and it was a really good day.  What I found really interesting was that the front nine was away from the water and was heavily bunkered, etc., while the back nine went out toward the river and did not have so many of those types of features which I believe was because the back nine was much windier.  I cannot remember a course with such a difference in front and back nines in that respect.

Ford Plantation has a very similar feel to CR Dye in that respect. Ironically, designed by Pete Dye, also.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have spent my entire life imagining what the future will hold.

Yeah, but how often did your vision include a bottle of Scotch, or similar?

[Kalen Braley]

Nearly 3 pages in and I haven't seen many direct responses to VK's questions in his original post.

1. Why don't playing corridors and playing width matter here?
2. Why don't bowling alley trees from tee to green not a concern for turf health, air and light here?
3. How is this, entirely "wrought" artifically-imposed-upon-the-land housing development rated World Top 50 course, site of an annual tournament for 40 years not a horrible beacon for unsustainable fantasyland course design, like the charge levied so often at Augusta National?
4. How come the obvious plus-maintenance this course requires not a stain?
5. Why doesn't flat ground doesn't matter here?
6. How come balls ricocheting off the cart paths 15 yards from fairways and green not an outrage to the natural sensibility here?
7. Why doesn't a tree in the middle of 390 yard dog leg hole (with trees on either side) not an unnatural stupidity here?

[Mark_Fine]

1. Why don't playing corridors and playing width matter here? 

First of all, not every hole at Harbour Town is tight.  There is plenty of room to play golf and even for most of us to hit driver (even most of the pros were hitting drivers on many of the holes).  More importantly, not every course should be super wide open.  Variety of the playing fields is what makes golf great!  My favorite courses are true links but I also love and enjoy to playing courses like Sahalee or Eugene CC or The Olympic Club or Valderrama, ..., It is fun to experience the variety and different challenges golf architecture has to offer.  Look at the two Stonewall courses outside of Philly; they are very different but why would you want two that are the same?

2. Why don't bowling alley trees from tee to green not a concern for turf health, air and light here? 

Those kind of holes are a concern but this is not the case at Harbour Town.  The turf conditions are excellent “year round”.  I know as I play there year round.

3. How is this, entirely "wrought" artifically-imposed-upon-the-land housing development rated World Top 50 course, site of an annual tournament for 40 years not a horrible beacon for unsustainable fantasyland course design, like the charge levied so often at Augusta National? 

Pete Dye is known for “building” golf courses not finding them.  If you don't like Pete's designs because of this, so be it.  Harbour Town is actually one of his more subtle designs as he did not beat up the land as much as usual.  It is a very pleasant walk and though difficult, very playable for most levels of golfers (and even though it is a resort course with all levels of golfers most rounds are played in about four hours and fifteen minutes). 

4. How come the obvious plus-maintenance this course requires not a stain? 

The maintenance of the course is outstanding.  I have said numerous times, anyone who hasn’t played there recently doesn’t realize the course is flawless. 

5. Why doesn't flat ground doesn't matter here? 

I said earlier, there are lots of courses on flat ground (I mentioned Pinehurst #2).  The TPC of Sawgrass has about 4 feet of elevation change.  How much elevation change do some of the great links courses have like St. Andrews (the answer is not much).

6. How come balls ricocheting off the cart paths 15 yards from fairways and green not an outrage to the natural sensibility here? 

There are very few cart paths in play at Harbour Town.  The one that people see on TV that will sometimes catch a stray tee shot is between 10 and 16 but other than that I can’t ever remember landing a golf ball on one.  Much of the time you (if you happen to be in a golf cart vs walking) you are on crushed shells or packed sand which is actually a nice surface to play off.   

7. Why doesn't a tree in the middle of 390 yard dog leg hole (with trees on either side) not an unnatural stupidity here? 

There are lots of trees on great golf courses in the middle of fairways.  Do you want me to make you a list?  Why don’t we start with the 18th at Pebble Beach.