[Sean_A]

Mark

St Andrews New has been cleared to some degree. It's no longer wall to wall green crap. I would much rather play St Andrews New over HT. Better grass, better conditions, cheaper and in a better location. While I don't agree that HT deserves a better Doak score, that doesn't matter much to me. If you are asking, SANC gets a 7 from me....it is one of the most under-ranked courses in GB&I.

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
You would know better on The New Course as I sadly have only played it once but talk about narrow playing corridors.  They better have cleared A LOT because I remember the guys (locals) I played with lost quite a few golf balls.  And we had caddies.  As you know sometimes you can see your ball in the gorse but you still can’t get to it without scrapping yourself up. 


At Harbour Town you can play/recover from the trees and since you have played they have cleared many.  Also the grass and conditions are now perfect year round.  Can’t help you with the price but that shouldn’t impact your Doak rating.  Tom has both Harbour Town and Long Cove in the 7/8 range.  Anyone who has it lower than that and I will argue they need to study them both more. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I recall being disappointed with HT last time I played it, several years ago at an ASGCA meeting.  Made the trip on my own much earlier because it was the "it" course.  I was enthralled with the Dye features, and didn't notice the narrowness, although, the trees might  have grown in a bit in the decade(s?) in between, but my second play, it was a bowling alley. 


Forget which architects I played with, but one of them made the comment that while Pete's courses looked Scottish, they didn't really play that way.  There was so much contours in the approach areas that no one was really tempted to try the bump and run.


Overall, though, I am sure Pete was glad to have such an out of the norm course (for him, later) in his portfolio.  I recall Pete telling me on several occasions that whatever RTJ was doing, he was going to do the opposite, i.e., RTJ had big rolling greens, so he was going to do small flatter ones, etc.

[jeffwarne]

At Harbour Town you can play/recover from the trees and since you have played they have cleared many.  Also the grass and conditions are now perfect year round.  Can’t help you with the price but that shouldn’t impact your Doak rating.  Tom has both Harbour Town and Long Cove in the 7/8 range.  Anyone who has it lower than that and I will argue they need to study them both more.

Kind of brings up interesting questions.
I played HT 4-5 times in the late 80's-early 90's.
Always in poor condition, always super slow pace of play(3 hour front nines)
Choked with trees which contributed to the poor condition that was pretty normal other than the few weeks leading up to the event where the overseed made the turf temporarily playable.Winding in and around homes where a stray shot could easily carom into a backyard.
With so many great golf courses out there, do you go back to one that disappointed you and "study" it again, or go where you prefer playing instead.....
I can respect it a unique and interesting Tour site, and an important step in architectural evolution without feeling the need to go play again.(It does look much improved on TV bt probably not enough to make me skip one of the courses below)
I'd go back to Long Cove in a second.Or Colleton River, Chechesse or the NLE Melrose

[Sean_A]

Sean,
You would know better on The New Course as I sadly have only played it once but talk about narrow playing corridors.  They better have cleared A LOT because I remember the guys (locals) I played with lost quite a few golf balls.  And we had caddies.  As you know sometimes you can see your ball in the gorse but you still can’t get to it without scrapping yourself up. 

At Harbour Town you can play/recover from the trees and since you have played they have cleared many.  Also the grass and conditions are now perfect year round.  Can’t help you with the price but that shouldn’t impact your Doak rating.  Tom has both Harbour Town and Long Cove in the 7/8 range.  Anyone who has it lower than that and I will argue they need to study them both more.

Well, I haven't seen HT for a very long time.  However, its hard to imagine the course is adequately wide...certainly hasn't looked that way when I see the course on tv.  I have never been a fan of constricted golf, be that be due to trees, water, rough, sand, steep valleys etc.  In general, trees really piss me off because I almost always think courses, would look better, play better and be healthier with far less trees. Rough pisses me off because it often covers cool features.  Life is too short to be pissed off 

I see Doak called HT a 7 and New a 6.  I would reverse the two, but thats small beer....and Doak can't be trusted where Dye is concerned 
 
Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

Jeff - HT is not nearly as narrow these days as most make out. And, they have spent a LOT of effort and money to improve the conditions (which was always a sticking point in the past).


Early Dye courses had a great deal of UK influence represented on them... with the problem you mentioned... the conditions usually negated the strategy or options offered. A couple of my favorite early Dye courses are Prestwick and DeBordieu in the SC Grand Strand area. Both show a lot of the influence Dye brought back from his tour of the UK, but unfortunately, the turf and playing conditions negate most of the features he borrowed from the UK. Holes with beautiful small mounds and run up areas that call for a chasing shot are offset by too lush and green conditions that do not allow the ball to bounce or release. Many of his courses have the “look,” but don’t play to their design. That’s not his fault. Some of the blame goes to the location of the courses with clay soil... some goes to the marketplace where “green” sells and customers want lush conditions beyond all else.


HT has a great deal of UK influence and, more and more, it is letting that influence shine though. But, it will never have the bouncy turf and firm conditions that its design deserves. That marketplace won’t currently allow it.

[Edward Glidewell]

HT has a great deal of UK influence and, more and more, it is letting that influence shine though. But, it will never have the bouncy turf and firm conditions that its design deserves. That marketplace won’t currently allow it.

With the amount of OB and/or hazards off the fairways on courses like Harbour Town and Prestwick, I'm not sure firm, bouncy conditions would be ideal. It's not like they have 80 yard wide corridors on most holes.

[Rob Marshall]

Ive played HT 4 or 5 times. I never felt like the houses were in play. In fact I think they have done a pretty good job camouflaging them and blending them into trees. What always struck me was the par 3’s. I thought they were really good. I did think that 14 plays a little long for the green complex. I think 8 or 9 iron shot would be perfect.

[jeffwarne]

Ive played HT 4 or 5 times. I never felt like the houses were in play. In fact I think they have done a pretty good job camouflaging them and blending them into trees. What always struck me was the par 3’s. I thought they were really good. I did think that 14 plays a little long for the green complex. I think 8 or 9 iron shot would be perfect.

185's not 8 or 9 iron? see Koepka, Bryson, Rory
I agree-a 145-165 yard shot would be better

[John McCarthy]

I have not played. 


But I know a lot of folks think it is way overpriced, probably due to being a tour stop for so many years.  Silas is also a tour stop and has a 75 dollar green fee.  I have also heard many folks who played it decry the condition but being so treed in that environment make turf growing tough.


All that said, the course on TV with the best players on the planet works.  It is peculiar.  Some shots nowadays do not call for fades, they call for slices.  And hooks.  In the modern era it seems to call for a balata ball. 


And it just seems comfy. 

[JMEvensky]

Kind of brings up interesting questions.
I played HT 4-5 times in the late 80's-early 90's.
Always in poor condition, always super slow pace of play(3 hour front nines)
Choked with trees which contributed to the poor condition that was pretty normal other than the few weeks leading up to the event where the overseed made the turf temporarily playable.Winding in and around homes where a stray shot could easily carom into a backyard.
With so many great golf courses out there, do you go back to one that disappointed you and "study" it again, or go where you prefer playing instead.....
I can respect it a unique and interesting Tour site, and an important step in architectural evolution without feeling the need to go play again.(It does look much improved on TV bt probably not enough to make me skip one of the courses below)
I'd go back to Long Cove in a second.Or Colleton River, Chechesse or the NLE Melrose



Same time period,same experience for me--especially the slow play and poor condition.


I'd play Long Cove 10/10 versus HT.

[Mark_Fine]

I play both these courses a lot and if you haven’t played Harbour Town or Long Cove in the last year or two since they each completed their renovations/re-grassing programs then you are making your assessments based on different golf courses.  I very much agree, Harbour Town used to have poor conditions from all the play and had very slow rounds.  Long Cove’s bunkering was tired and most had shrunk in size/shape and the greenside bunkers had separated from the green surfaces.  This is in part why both courses dropped in the rankings.  The new grassing alone has made a huge difference at both courses.  It is a great playing surface. Anyone who has played HT/LC recently will immediately recognize the huge difference.  Pete would be proud of what has been done. 

[Michael Whitaker]

I play both these courses a lot and if you haven’t played Harbour Town or Long Cove in the last year or two since they each completed their renovations/re-grassing programs then you are making your assessments based on different golf courses.  I very much agree, Harbour Town used to have poor conditions from all the play and had very slow rounds.  Long Cove’s bunkering was tired and most had shrunk in size/shape and the greenside bunkers had separated from the green surfaces.  This is in part why both courses dropped in the rankings.  The new grassing alone has made a huge difference at both courses.  It is a great playing surface. Anyone who has played HT/LC recently will immediately recognize the huge difference.  Pete would be proud of what has been done. 

Mark - your comments are spot on. Conditioning is no longer an issue at HT. All these comments about friends who have played, or visits in the 80’s don’t carry much weight. The course has had extensive work to improve conditions and to widen the corridors where possible. And, the comments about bouncy not turf not working because the OB completely misses the point. It’s on the approaches that the courses could benefit from a firmer surface. I’m not a very talented golfer, but I don’t remember ever hunting a shot OB on Prestwick or HT. If OB is a problem for someone these I think they have more important issues to deal with than the width of the fairways.

[Ben Stephens]

At Harbour Town you can play/recover from the trees and since you have played they have cleared many.  Also the grass and conditions are now perfect year round.  Can’t help you with the price but that shouldn’t impact your Doak rating.  Tom has both Harbour Town and Long Cove in the 7/8 range.  Anyone who has it lower than that and I will argue they need to study them both more.

Kind of brings up interesting questions.
I played HT 4-5 times in the late 80's-early 90's.
Always in poor condition, always super slow pace of play(3 hour front nines)
Choked with trees which contributed to the poor condition that was pretty normal other than the few weeks leading up to the event where the overseed made the turf temporarily playable.Winding in and around homes where a stray shot could easily carom into a backyard.
With so many great golf courses out there, do you go back to one that disappointed you and "study" it again, or go where you prefer playing instead.....
I can respect it a unique and interesting Tour site, and an important step in architectural evolution without feeling the need to go play again.(It does look much improved on TV bt probably not enough to make me skip one of the courses below)
I'd go back to Long Cove in a second.Or Colleton River, Chechesse or the NLE Melrose

Sad to see that Melrose is NLE it was one of my favourite Nicklaus Design courses that I have played on. There were interesting holes and was quite strategic. I remember that My father and I were the only people on the course once and the sprinklers went off on the first hole as we approached the tee and when we left the green they came back on???!! However it was in the middle of July.


I also played Bloody Point which is also NLE a Weiskopf/Morrish course with a huge green on the last with a centre bunker - thought it was rather cool at the time.


Enjoyed the boat ride in the early morning and late evening to and from Daufuskie Island so I assume that Haig Point is the only surviving course on the island?


Other courses I have played on in HHI are Port Royal (Robbers Row - Cobb/Dye and Planters Row (now NLE?)) Shipyard, Golden Bear at Indigo Run and Oyster Reef. The last time I was there was over 10 years ago and sad to hear that Piggly Wiggly is also no longer.

[Rob Marshall]

Ive played HT 4 or 5 times. I never felt like the houses were in play. In fact I think they have done a pretty good job camouflaging them and blending them into trees. What always struck me was the par 3’s. I thought they were really good. I did think that 14 plays a little long for the green complex. I think 8 or 9 iron shot would be perfect.

185's not 8 or 9 iron? see Koepka, Bryson, Rory
I agree-a 145-165 yard shot would be better

I thought they said it was playing 165 yesterday but I could be mistaken. It didn't look like the back tee from what I remember. Peter Kostis commented a few years ago that it would be a great short par 3.

[Jerry Kluger]

Just a note to those who plan on playing HT - Atlantic Dunes is also a part of Sea Pines and a renovation was recently done by the Davis Love team and I really enjoyed the course.  I haven't been to Sea Island to see what he has done to the Plantation course but I plan on doing so in the near future.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

185's not 8 or 9 iron? see Koepka, Bryson, Rory
I agree-a 145-165 yard shot would be better



When I was doing Firekeeper with Notah Begay III, the 16th was a par 3 and for total length, we added a small tee up a hill to get it to 210 or so.  The green was nicely rolling, draining to the front left and back right, with a ridge dividing.  Notah directed taking the back tee out because he felt the green fit a "160-180 shot."  He was pretty articulate, but that was something he "just felt" and couldn't describe.  I took it as some sense of proportional challenge or punishment, most likely the green contours would allow him to attack a pin with a shorter iron, but not a longer one.  (Of course, as a shorter hitter on tour, he probably was going to hit a 3-4 iron in at 210, not the 5-6 many longer players would.)


It was a design concept I would have really liked to flesh out more, so if Jeff W (or anyone else!) can articulate what you mean by that any better than NBIII, please feel free to attempt it.  What kind of green shape, contours, etc. make a green "too hard" for a shot over "X" yards?

[William_G]

-anyone who's played HT love the fact that 18 green is not near the 1st tee?
-the greens are small and their contours are limited as such
-the fairways are narrow (except 18) and their contours are limited as such
-flat site, huge housing development, done in good taste, Pete Dye and recently renovated
-long time PGA Tour stop
-one play and no need to play again for me

[Tom_Doak]

I play both these courses a lot and if you haven’t played Harbour Town or Long Cove in the last year or two since they each completed their renovations/re-grassing programs then you are making your assessments based on different golf courses.  I very much agree, Harbour Town used to have poor conditions from all the play and had very slow rounds.  Long Cove’s bunkering was tired and most had shrunk in size/shape and the greenside bunkers had separated from the green surfaces.  This is in part why both courses dropped in the rankings.  The new grassing alone has made a huge difference at both courses.  It is a great playing surface. Anyone who has played HT/LC recently will immediately recognize the huge difference.  Pete would be proud of what has been done. 

Mark - your comments are spot on. Conditioning is no longer an issue at HT. All these comments about friends who have played, or visits in the 80’s don’t carry much weight. The course has had extensive work to improve conditions and to widen the corridors where possible. And, the comments about bouncy not turf not working because the OB completely misses the point. It’s on the approaches that the courses could benefit from a firmer surface.

This is an architecture site, so most of the comments about the conditions of the course are really OT.  Conditions used to be bad, and I guess right now they're not, because any course recently renovated is going to be tighter and bouncier for the next 2-3 years.  [But that won't last forever, either.]  By the same token, concern trolling about keeping the fairways in good shape with all that shade is just an indirect way of saying you don't like narrow clearings!


Likewise, suggestions that everyone needs to play the course again now are not mandates.  Everyone gets to decide whether they liked the course enough to go back or not.  We don't owe it to them, anymore than any of 1,000 other courses.




I watched the highlights yesterday and saw two shots I had never imagined:  Koepka landing driver on the green on #9 and having it softly roll out to four feet for eagle, and Ancer hitting 4-wood or whatever blind over the corner of the dogleg and the pond onto the green at 15.  [It looked like others did the same, I just didn't see those.]  I can't believe Mr. Nicklaus or Mr. Dye ever imagined those shots, either.  The pros just play a different game now.

[Rob Marshall]

Those aren't short trees they are hitting a fairway wood  over on 15 either. Simpson did it also. Completely different game from the one most of us are playing.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have spent my entire life imagining what the future will hold. I would be shocked if Nicklaus and/or Dye never imagined those shots.


I’m imagining having this same conversation next year about Harbour Town. It’s an odd staple of this site.

[Kalen Braley]

You can put me in the same camp as Sean A and others. No GCA hypocrisy here...not a fan of the course.

Yes, I've only seen it in pictures and on TV, but safe to say not on my bucket list, (especially not with a hell-no $300 rack rate).

P.S.  I do enjoy watching the pros play it thou as its a nice deviation from the typical swing away gouge/wedge fest...

[Rob Marshall]

How do you judge a course based on TV? I thought Seminole looked wide open and boring on TV. Nothing shown during the telecast made me want to play it.

[Kalen Braley]

How do you judge a course based on TV? I thought Seminole looked wide open and boring on TV. Nothing shown during the telecast made me want to play it.

Its not about coming up with a full assessment, of course that'd be woefully inadequate.  Its about having enough information to say its not for me. But I'm not singling out HT here, there are plenty of other venues on my not interested list that are high profile otherwise.

P.S.  Seminole looked fantastic to my eye, even if the holes on the flat bits weren't as compelling. But if its not your thing, I have no problem with that.

[Rob Marshall]

How do you judge a course based on TV? I thought Seminole looked wide open and boring on TV. Nothing shown during the telecast made me want to play it.

Its not about coming up with a full assessment, of course that'd be woefully inadequate.  Its about having enough information to say its not for me. But I'm not singling out HT here, there are plenty of other venues on my not interested list that are high profile otherwise.

P.S.  Seminole looked fantastic to my eye, even if the holes on the flat bits weren't as compelling. But if its not your thing, I have no problem with that.

I'm not saying it's not my thing. I've heard nothing but great things about Seminole. I'm not going to judge it by what I saw on TV. I get your point.

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