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Luke Sutton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« on: June 16, 2020, 09:43:05 AM »
At the beginning Sunday’s Shotgun Start Podcast, Andy Johnson’s said that MJ’s new course was built below grade, has become a lake and is in need of a total redesign/reimagine. Wakeboard lake maybe?

Is this the fault of the GCA?

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-shotgun-start/id1435273901?i=1000477958887
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 09:44:36 AM by Luke Sutton »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 10:30:56 AM »
And I hear lawsuits will soon be flying!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 11:36:59 AM »
Heard that Hobe Sound had over 30" of rain in a 2 week period including 14" in 48 hours.

Brad Engel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 12:41:59 PM »
Picture from Andy Johnson's Twitter feed.... :o


Image

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2020, 12:56:26 PM »
If sea levels keep rising, that is what a lot of Florida is going to look like 30-50 years from now.

https://sealevel.climatecentral.org/news/floria-and-the-rising-sea

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2020, 12:59:08 PM »
If sea levels keep rising, that is what a lot of Florida is going to look like 30-50 years from now.

https://sealevel.climatecentral.org/news/floria-and-the-rising-sea
Isn't that what lots of Florida courses look like already?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2020, 01:14:33 PM »
I mean, surely Bobby Weed didn’t just forget about water or mess up. They must have just planned for a certain amount of water capacity and understood that beyond that certain level, the course would flood. And then put that all in legal documents that everybody signed. Right?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 01:22:07 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2020, 01:48:13 PM »
Greens and tees appear above water so it looks like casual water and a free drop  ;D Apart from the toothy reptiles where's the problem  ::) :P

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2020, 02:54:40 PM »
Wow! That looks like a total engineering disaster. However, the canal that runs the perimeter doesn't look like it has flooded over so it is coming form elsewhere.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 03:13:18 PM »
Reminds me of Oregon State University's Trysting Tree course when the Willamette River overflows. High tees and greens.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2020, 03:16:17 PM »
Its surrounded by canals on two sides.  Looks like it was the canal at the top of the picture (north side) that overflowed...


https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Grove+XXIII/@27.081304,-80.2204082,784m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dedb32d52adae7:0xfec47332fb1fe5cd!8m2!3d27.0777813!4d-80.2167865

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2020, 03:28:53 PM »
Hopefully it drained quickly.
If the water stayed for 2-3 days after the last rainfall and it was sunny, it could create a "prism effect" and the sun rays through the standing H20 could kill the grass.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2020, 03:44:58 PM »
Its surrounded by canals on two sides.  Looks like it was the canal at the top of the picture (north side) that overflowed...


https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Grove+XXIII/@27.081304,-80.2204082,784m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dedb32d52adae7:0xfec47332fb1fe5cd!8m2!3d27.0777813!4d-80.2167865
ah yeah your right Kalen.  This is what happened to Ayodhya Links in Bangkok years ago and they had to build the entire course up 10-15 feet.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2020, 04:34:31 PM »
I mean, surely Bobby Weed didn’t just forget about water or mess up. They must have just planned for a certain amount of water capacity and understood that beyond that certain level, the course would flood. And then put that all in legal documents that everybody signed. Right?


It would be rare if the design contract was clear about something like this.


Having looked at the site several years ago, I would not have caught that the canals might flood it at the time of signing a contract.  But if it came up as a possibility during planning, we would have certainly discussed the probability of flooding vs the cost of raising all of the fairways.  I just hope it came up at some point!


When we did The Rawls Course, the University put the engineers under my contract so I would be responsible for such things.  I discuss the ramifications in my book.  Building the course without imported fill made it a large bathtub, so we had to be extra extra sure that no sheet flow from a storm event drained into the bathtub!

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 04:51:58 PM »
Its surrounded by canals on two sides.  Looks like it was the canal at the top of the picture (north side) that overflowed...


https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Grove+XXIII/@27.081304,-80.2204082,784m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dedb32d52adae7:0xfec47332fb1fe5cd!8m2!3d27.0777813!4d-80.2167865
ah yeah your right Kalen.  This is what happened to Ayodhya Links in Bangkok years ago and they had to build the entire course up 10-15 feet.
If I was water I think the two pot bunkers built into the levee (about 1/3 the way west to east) would be a possible culprit for me to exploit.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2020, 08:06:45 PM »
Horrible.  Anyone know what Medalist looks like?  It was reputed to have a very high water table back about 6 years ago.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2020, 08:58:52 PM »
the lowest point at Seminole is below sea level, just saying
It's all about the golf!

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2020, 09:05:18 PM »
Looks like somebody bought some cheap swamp land and turned it into expensive swamp land. Lift, clean and place rules apply?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2020, 11:17:24 PM »
I've definitely seen courses in Chicagoland that looked like that.  Bob O just a few weeks ago even and that has totally revamped drainage.  I remember seeing dead fish all over Green Acres once after the village plugged a drain during a big storm. 

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2020, 05:52:58 AM »
the lowest point at Seminole is below sea level, just saying


Unlike Grove XVII, Seminole is on near 100% sandy soil and drains relatively well. It has stood the test of hurricanes, deluges, and time.


As Tom, or any of the architects or builders here would tell you...there is no substitute for sandy soil.



The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2020, 06:15:20 AM »
Seminole gets a little more help than you think with their drainage... 


https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2002jun58a.pdf

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2020, 07:00:50 AM »
Seminole gets a little more help than you think with their drainage... 


https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2002jun58a.pdf


thank you, nice article by Larry Aylward, Seminole can't get any closer to the Atlantic that's for sure
It's all about the golf!

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2020, 09:10:31 AM »
Seminole gets a little more help than you think with their drainage... 


https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2002jun58a.pdf


Where do they send the water?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2020, 12:24:55 PM »
the lowest point at Seminole is below sea level, just saying



Unlike Grove XVII, Seminole is on near 100% sandy soil and drains relatively well. It has stood the test of hurricanes, deluges, and time.


Yes, it is on sand, but at sea level it doesn't matter, especially with the rains they have been having. And as you can see in the link, they have an incredible system in place.

As Tom, or any of the architects or builders here would tell you...there is no substitute for sandy soil.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove XXIII - now a lake? NLE? Redesign?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2020, 04:42:31 PM »
the lowest point at Seminole is below sea level, just saying

Unlike Grove XVII, Seminole is on near 100% sandy soil and drains relatively well. It has stood the test of hurricanes, deluges, and time.

Yes, it is on sand, but at sea level it doesn't matter, especially with the rains they have been having. And as you can see in the link, they have an incredible system in place.



Quite. It doesn't matter how well something drains if the water table is only just below the surface!




Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

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