Walking with trolleys

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney, its not mandatory but in the last 10 years, well over half of the Evans Scholars from our club have been members of minority groups.  Similar numbers with out internal scholarship fund which covers all employees and their children.

It is a great organization. Everyone could do a little better.

[Edward Glidewell]

I would play at East Lake more often if I didn't have to pay an extra $100 for the mandatory caddie (although I understand why they're mandatory -- if they weren't, they probably wouldn't get enough use to justify having a caddie program at all).

So the justification in making caddies mandatory is that otherwise no-one would take one?


I really thought we'd got past that Luddite idea of labour protectionism. It smacks of the states that don't allow self-service gas stations because it protects the outdated jobs of people who really should be employed doing something else.


If there is a demand for caddies - great! If there isn't, artificially creating one via archaic rules is frankly ridiculous and goes against all free market principles.

I don't know if that's actually the justification; it's just my assumption. As Lou said, it's not that no one would take one, it's that there may not be enough support to sustain the program, which would then deprive players that wanted one.

East Lake exists for charitable purposes, though, and the vast majority of members are corporations. So it's a bit different than a standard club.

[SL_Solow]

Barney, we certainly agree on that point, we all can and should do better.  Edward, is it your position that a private club is governed by "free market principles"?  Perhaps the competition between private clubs may represent some form of a free market but within the individual clubs, there is anything but a free market.  Each club makes its own rules.  If there are enough like minded individuals who are willing and able to make the appropriate financial commitment, the club succeeds.  If not, it changes its rules or fails.  Thus, if enough members believe that a robust caddie program is important and if they decide to insure that program's success by requiring walkers to utilize the services of a caddie, they are free to do so.  If others want to form a club with different rules they are equally free to pursue their preferences.  I understand that many of my friends here prefer a different model than the one favored by my club  and many others in Chicago.  I have no problem with that point of view even though I prefer supporting a caddie program in our fashion.  I simply suggest that the criticism of our model is an attempt to impose their preferences on others who are happy with our program.


Additionally, Lou is correct that we agree on most things with respect to this topic.  Lou is skeptical that our membership would be supportive if a secret ballot were taken.  Based on well over a decade in club governance, I think I know better.  An additional data point.  While we allow trolleys and carrying during this strange time, we have consistent questions regarding when caddies will again be allowed and  members are contributing to a fund for our laid off employees including caddies, as are many other clubs.


A final point regarding caddies as a means of establishing exclusivity or prestige.  I think my club is a very good place with a fine golf course.  There are several clubs within only a few miles with greater "snob appeal".  We have a very laid back atmosphere.  There are more than a few clubs in Chicago who are similarly situated. So the caddie programs truly have a different motivation. The WGA has done a wonderful job of convincing the golfers in this town of the value of a thriving caddie program.  I am not a WGA director, i spend my time with the CDGA but we work together on many issues.  They have done and continue to do a remarkable job.  Playing with a caddie is a real privilege, even if it is a young caddie who is learning the game.  Watching the young caddies grow up and succeed is very special and those that obtain scholarships are given opportunities that they might not otherwise achieve.  So criticize the program all that you wish.  Suggest that you appreciate caddies but...  The clubs supporting the program are providing summer employment to teens, introducing them to the game and giving them a chance to earn a free college education.  If we are going to be criticized for something, I'll take this program as one that I am more than willing to defend

[corey miller]

Sorry Shel but the obvious retort to club governance is that EVERYONE with a decade of club governance thinks they know what the members want and what is best for the club.     It is not just you and I tend to think Lou is more correct than you might think.


That said, there does seem to be a giant difference between how the system works in Chicago and how it works in some of the areas I am more familiar with.  The hidden detail is that ultimately caddies should be on the payroll of the clubs with benefits, the fact that they are not, and that they are still mandatory is very disturbing. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I've been lucky enough to play Shelly's club with a caddie. It is a buzz with young professionals that I doubt feel like pushing a cart around during a well earned break in their busy lives.


Truth be told, trolleys and caddies are not a good mix in the same group. It creates an unneeded awkwardness on many fronts.

[SL_Solow]

Corey,  I don't want to belabor the point but I think it is somewhat curious that you and Lou, who have never visited my club, think you know more about what our members think than an active member who spent 6 years on the Board, became President when the course required a renovation after a major storm, took 10 years off while serving on committees, and then was asked to sit on the Board again serving the maximum 6 years until last year.  If I had to bet on the individual who best understood the membership...?


But again, people are free to look for and choose a model that fits their preferences.  If I disagree with your preference, so long as it is not immoral or illegal, I will respect it.  So why the problem, particularly given the ancillary benefits?  The rules at the clubs who require caddies for walkers are known before anyone joins.  Nobody is compelled to join.  Club by-laws permit rules changes and rules are often changed yet this rule survives.  Those who are outside the club who don't like the rules need not join.  Since the rule does not violate any other public policy, there is no reason for an outsider to complain.

[Michael Whitaker]

I look at the mandatory caddie programs thusly... there is not a single club that I’m aware of in the UK or Ireland (with Scotland the home of golf) that has a mandatory caddie program. Not one. If caddies are such and integral part of the game why are they not integral in Scotland, or England, Ireland? Because, they are not integral to the game. Only in the elite American mind is this the case.


In the US mandatory caddie programs are just another way to make club membership an elite experience. The expense of these programs is meant to separate those who can afford from those who can’t.


Not don’t get me wrong... I’m all for having a program where YOUNG people can use a caddy program to earn extra money and possibly a college scholarship. But, I have no interest in paying some 50+ year old guy $100-150 to carry my clubs and read the greens for me. Golf doesn’t mean that much to me.

[Rob Marshall]

“Not don’t get me wrong... I’m all for having a program where YOUNG people can use a caddy program to earn extra money and possibly a college scholarship. But, I have no interest in paying some 50+ year old guy $100-150 to carry my clubs and read the greens for me. Golf doesn’t mean that much to me. “


I wouldn’t want someone I don’t know listening in on conversations between myself and my playing partners either.

[Edward Glidewell]

Ed,  I don't want to belabor the point but I think it is somewhat curious that you and Lou, who have never visited my club, think you know more about what our members think than an active member who spent 6 years on the Board, became President when the course required a renovation after a major storm, took 10 years off while serving on committees, and then was asked to sit on the Board again serving the maximum 6 years until last year.  If I had to bet on the individual who best understood the membership...?

I didn't say anything about that?


I don't have any problem with clubs requiring mandatory caddies; it's their prerogative to do so. My original comment was more about golf in general, because I have seen people belabor the fact that caddies aren't still in use everywhere without considering the economic problems.

[Bernie Bell]

From 147 Custodians preamble
"A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot."
"A course that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status."

[Duncan Cheslett]

Clearly some wealthy men get a kick out of paying poor people to park their car, clean their shoes, and carry their clubs. Perhaps it makes them feel important.


It is an attitude that was once prevalent on this side of the pond too. It seems to have almost entirely disappeared. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Clearly some wealthy men get a kick out of paying poor people to park their car, clean their shoes, and carry their clubs. Perhaps it makes them feel important.


It is an attitude that was once prevalent on this side of the pond too. It seems to have almost entirely disappeared.

When you don't have a King somedays you like to feel like one.

[SL_Solow]

Ed,  I apologize.  I was responding to a statement by Corey.

[Mark_Fine]

Love the discussion but how about some help with notable courses that allow trolleys?  There is an obvious reason why a pull cart is almost impossible to buy right now - it is because everybody wants one.  Golfers want and need to walk and not everyone can carry their own bag.  A trolley is a great option.

[John Kavanaugh]

Love the discussion but how about some help with notable courses that allow trolleys?  There is an obvious reason why a pull cart is almost impossible to buy right now - it is because everybody wants one.  Golfers want and need to walk and not everyone can carry their own bag.  A trolley is a great option.

Why? Notable courses are not currently allowing guests.

[Rob Marshall]

Love the discussion but how about some help with notable courses that allow trolleys?  There is an obvious reason why a pull cart is almost impossible to buy right now - it is because everybody wants one.  Golfers want and need to walk and not everyone can carry their own bag.  A trolley is a great option.

Why? Notable courses are not currently allowing guests.

I played Oak Hill East a week and a half ago.  I was a guest and I used my speed cart. I resisted the temptation to push it down the hills for fun.

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought Bandon made a huge error when they let people bring their personal push carts. Seeing a staff bag rolling loose down a hill kills the aesthetic vibe.


The above illustrates the primary issue. Bandon provided in-house trolleys at $5 per round. But of course this wasn’t enough and guests insisted on bringing their own. The world isn’t flat, it’s one big slippery slope.


I have railed against cameras for decades. This year I make my first trip to Pebble and can’t get one uncluttered view of the ocean because one bud who stands between me and the waters edge taking pics on every shot. I quit even looking.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
I don’t care about guest play.  I care about member play.  I am trying to convince my own club that there is nothing wrong with allowing trolleys and it is the right thing to do.  If you allow walking with your bag you should allow walking with a trolley.  Why wouldn’t you! 

[Bernie Bell]

List of courses

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62971.msg1499186.html#msg1499186

[Bernie Bell]

Thoughts on getting approval.  Good luck. 


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49662.msg1124221.html#msg1124221

[SL_Solow]

Mark,  To clarify my view, if one is allowed to carry their bag, I agree that trolleys should be allowed.  Consistent with my views, it is a club decision but I see no rationale for the distinction.  Incidentally, at my club, pre-Covid, when caddies were unavailable players could take carts, carry or use a trolley.  The same is true during the Covid crisis when caddies are not permitted

[Mark_Fine]

Bernie,
Very helpful thanks 😊

[John Kavanaugh]

John,
I don’t care about guest play.  I care about member play.  I am trying to convince my own club that there is nothing wrong with allowing trolleys and it is the right thing to do.  If you allow walking with your bag you should allow walking with a trolley.  Why wouldn’t you!

If I had a vibrant caddie program I wouldn’t allow trolleys simply because caddies and trolleys don’t mix. It’s not fair for a caddie to be forced to work for someone who is not paying him. When a ball is lost a caddie has no choice but to help look and that is just the start. Caddies have an innate ability to find every ball with the exception of their clients. It’s just creates unneeded drama.


Before you know it your membership is divided between trolley guys and caddie guys. It’s not worth it. It would be like giving half a town free gas. Chaos ensues. 

[SL_Solow]

Barney,  the same thing happens when part of a group rides and part walks with caddies.  Many years ago, clubs made riders take at least one forecaddie per group to avoid the "freeloader" issue but that day is long gone.

[Lou_Duran]

The previous threads reminded me of the Peter, Paul and Mary concert from the 1960s recently on PBS.   The same unhappiness and protestation about fairness, social justice, love, war, peace, etc. 50+ years ago as we regularly see on TV today.


It has been said that while we have experienced unimaginable, accelerated technological progress in many areas over the last several decades, human nature has not changed much.  I happen to believe that we are making significant strides, albeit at a comparatively slow rate, but perhaps not enough to suit our expectations and patience.


It does appear that some progress has been made vis-a-vis push/pull carts, though it is unlikely that their use will be universal.  In places with large elevation changes, big sites, and thin air (e.g. Park City), they are often impractical.


Fortunately, for the most part, there are enough choices in many U.S. markets to satisfy our personal preferences.  At my course, once C-19 protocols are no longer in place, instead of using my own ClicGear, I will be required to rent the club's for $10/round or go back to carrying my clubs; not optimal perhaps, but not the end of the world either.